A victory for all Web users
Published March 4th, 2008 5:46 PM EST By Daniel GoldmanTo the great relief of Web developers, Microsoft opted for true Web standards support with Internet Explorer 8 (IE8).
I know Opera’s decision to file an anti-trust complaint against Microsoft wasn’t a very popular one with many of you. Microsoft didn’t publicly give any reason for the change in mind, but you’ve got to wonder whether the Opera complaint with the EU had anything to do with it.
The last few weeks appeared dark and gloomy for the Web, given the prospects of a broken Web and IE8. Thank god for the pressure from Opera, Hakon Wium Lie, and many other Web developers.
Thank you Microsoft.
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Don’t worry, I’m sure that the Opera guys will take credit for it.
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Microsoft made a good desicion? That’s a shocker…
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@GT500
I’ve seen that same response countless times since that press release.
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So now you’ve seen it again. You’ve got to admit it was a pretty big surprise?
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Guys, don’t you fly a bit too high? Have you got ANY kind of proof that this decision has anything to do with Opera? For most users, and certainly for Microsoft your complain had meaningles impact. It is similar to me standing up and braging that it was MY input that made MS change their minds. What made that decision is money, somebody did a math and it seems, that he found out that it is more profitable for them to do it in the normal way. Seriously, Earth to Opera..
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Nystorm is right. Opera complaining about Microsoft all these years didn’t work very well. Which is why Opera logged an antitrust complaint with EU. Now that Microsoft faces the possibility of yet another massive fine, they have decided that enough is enugh. The antitrust complaint from Opera was what forced Microsoft to do this.
Microsoft: “this step clearly removes this question as a potential legal and regulatory issue”
Eric Meyer: “And the message seems to be this: that Opera’s move to link IE development to the larger EU anti-trust investigation bore fruit.”
Cnet: “At the end of last year, Opera complained to the European Commission about Microsoft’s browser practices, and last week Microsoft was handed a record fine for its past noncompliance with EU dictates.”
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Opera… wins!
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It’s pretty clear that the complaint filed by Opera is the main reason behind MS’s move, they can’t afford another huge fine by the EU so they must play safe regarding anti-trust complaints and the one filed by Opera was consistent enough to make them reconsider their strategy for IE8 — anyone familiar with EU laws and previous rules by the commission knows that there was a case for Opera. MS has even admitted it in the press release as someone stated above:
“this step clearly removes this question as a potential legal and regulatory issue”
Clever move by MS, they try to avoid another knockout fine and play the “we are not evil” card at the same time. All considered, a very good day for all of us and the future of the web.
P.S. Too bad for those Laissez-faire capitalists that used to post here, other blogs and on the Opera forums bashing Opera and the EU with uninformed claims when Opera filed the complaint ; now they must be appalled. Then again, they will find another way to twist the facts.
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I think it was the timing of it that put people off Daniel. It’s a shame, because I think a lot of people agree with the principle, but it came not long after the IE team had announced Acid2 passed, and before all this version targetting nonsense. So it was a time when things actually looked slightly more positive for the future of IE anyway.
Had Opera launched the anti-trust complaint after the version targetting idea was announced, I think there would have been a lot more support.
With MS having just been fined $1.3Billion by the EU for previous infringements, and with the Opera complaint yet to get anywhere, it’s not difficult to imagine them thinking it might be better to go the standards route than risk another hefty EU decision. Especially when so much popular opinon was against it as well.
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“Had Opera launched the anti-trust complaint after the version targetting idea was announced, I think there would have been a lot more support.”
On the contrary - the version targetting idea was only made public after Opera’s complaint, as a way of saying, “But we are standards-compliant! Look, we pass Acid2!” Which was quite a tactical error in itself - the backlash from that is what forced this turn-around.
So, full marks to Opera for forcing Microsoft’s hand and making their plans public early, bonus points to MS for bowing to public opinion.
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A good step, let’s hope it pays off and websites become more Opera friendly
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@Adrian Lee
It was the only chance, as the EU was already investigating Microsoft. If not then, then maybe never.
Nope. Opera’s complaint came before the IE team announced that IE8 passed Acid2.
By then it would probably have been too late.
Sorry, what? The EU officially started investigations of Microsoft because of Opera’s complaint! How can you claim that it is “yet to get anywhere”? It is going on at full speed! Are you not paying attention?
And they risked a hefty EU decision precisely because of Opera’s antitrust complaint, which prompted the EU to start investigating Microsoft!
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I wonder if this “Acid Compliance” would happen at all if Opera, a very small company compared to Apple and Mozilla Foundation stood up and threatened them with lawsuit.
Thanks Opera for doing things which Apple with billions of dollars or Mozilla foundation with millions of dollars in donation can’t dare to do.
Web standards owe you big time but as we all experienced, they will ignore..
.
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apologies for double comment, I wanted to mean “If Opera didn’t stand up for web standards”.
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Wasn’t a lawsuit though. “Just” an antitrust complaint. Which got an EU antitrust investigation started.
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Just for the record: Mozilla isn’t getting millions in donations. It is getting millions from Yahoo and Google for search referrals.
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R.I.P Microsoft Internet Explorer
March 5th , 2008
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heh… yes this is interesting. In a way, Microsoft will be digging their own grave whatever they do…
If they did nothing, or stuck with their lock-in strategy, IE would slowly but surely be replaced by SCB’s (Standrads Compliant Browsers), backed and promoted by many many web designers around the world.
If they make IE8 properly standards compliant they open up for totally standards based web development, which in turn means that the threshold for installing Linux instead of Windows is lowered considerably, since all web apps would work everywhere.
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Congratulations to Opera and to all web users! This is something we’ve all been waiting for
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I haven’t changed my opinion about Opera and the complaint they launched. This won’t be the fix-all to Opera’s website problems. Fact is, Firefox had fewer web sites without launching a complaint.
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David: “This won’t be the fix-all to Opera’s website problems.”
So what? It worked! It forced Microsoft to do the right thing.
David again: “Fact is, Firefox had fewer web sites without launching a complaint.”
That’s because Firefox is Netscape, and all webmasters test in Netscape by default. Firefox got lots of compatibility for free because it is/was using the same engine as Netscape.
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David Naylor: “Mozilla isn’t getting millions in donations.”
Maybe not (from Google) today, but they did until recently (a couple of years ago). But they do receive donations still. Isn’t there a rule that non-profits need a certain per centage of their income through donations?
In any case, Mozilla was definitely funded by donations until recently.
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IE8 Beta 1 is now up for download… in my first few minutes of using it, I have good news and bad news. The good news is it does pass Acid2. The bad news is that it still doesn’t support application/xhtml+xml. Just got it so I haven’t done much DOM testing yet, but at least the CSS support is finally similar to MOS browsers.
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Of course it falls far short of Opera in CSS3 selectors…
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OK, so I was a tiny bit out on the ACID2 thing. That was announced a few days after the antitrust complaint.
Now that I’m reminded of the time lines, I still say it was bad timing.
For a long while there was barely any info on IE8. I was starting to get frustrated by that, some people were saying there wasn’t going to be another one etc…
Then, I think it was Molly Holzschlag, posted about how she’d had a short conversation with Bill Gates, including mnetioning what happened to the IE Blog, and why weren’t we hearing about IE8 development?
Tehn, a week or 2 before the Opera complaint, there were a couple bits of info stuck posted on the IE Blog, not a lot, but at least it was something.
The complaint came along, and various comments were along the lines of why didn’t they do it 2/3/4 years ago? We hadn’t heard anything about IE8 for ages, suddenly we get a few sniffs of info, and before anything is really said, Opera slaps an anti trust complaint down. Some might say that’s playing hard ball…
Then the ACID2 stuff is announced, and I think that would’ve been announced regardless of the Opera complaint, because of the way Bill had said he’d poke the IE team into posting some info.
Suddenly the Opera complaint looks mostly like it lacked teeth, because MS seemed to be making some kind of attempt to meet half of it anyway.
I don’t see why Opera launching the complaint after the version targetting was announced would have been too late. I say it’s not gotten anywhere because nothings come of it yet. Not saying it should have in this time frame, but starting an investigation is hardly the same as enforcing a decision.
So the EU starts an investigation, I’m sure being investigated is nothing new for MS, and if the compaint brought pressure on them to change the implementation, I don’t think the fact the complaint was brought mid December instead of just after ALA announced it would make much difference.
I still think the timing was wrong, I don’t think issuing it after the version targetting was first announced would have been too late, and I don’t think anyone outside MS can 100% say that the complaint was a major driver for the decision, though it does seem likely that it was at least part of the reason.
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@Adrian Lee
It was then, or never. There was a window of opportunity, and it was about to close.
Because it might have been too late. The window of opportunity might have been closed. And besides, how was Opera supposed to know what Microsoft was planning to do? Opera had been waiting for YEARS for something to happen, but Microsoft kept going with their old lies.
A lot has come of it. EU has officially stated that they will be investigating the complaint. What, you think these things are investigated overnight? You are clearly unfamiliar with how these things work, so maybe you should refrain from commenting on them..?
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Internet Explorer v8 for Windows Beta 1 just released at Betanews,com
Who´s prepared to take the risk?
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@sigh
Try reading the sentance after that. Clearly you’re unfamiliar with reading, maybe you should refrain from commenting.
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It’s a great victory over proprietary non standards compliance code. Well done everyone.
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Right. That’s very good news!
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I honestly smiled when I got this news today. I’m one of those who was sceptical to Opera-complaint, but I guess I have to bite the bullet.
Anyway, instead of talking **** about MS I’m gonna appload them here. They’re doing good stuff!
(Yeah, I know they should of done it long time ago, but late is alot better than never isn’t it?)
A OSnews article has a interesting take on this.
Not sure if I agree, but it’s a interesting perspective.
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haha… nice… first comment using IE8?
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Well, that ie8 thingy is looking good. A little slow (virtual machine, I wont risk my rig with it), but functional, and out of the box it spports all and every one page I’ve tried. That as well might mean end to alternative browsers. IE was loosing marketshare because it wasnt secure and got bad press. With IE8 you can’t say, that it stops the web as IE6 did and it is hard to point out that one featre that is completly broken.
And if they try and manage to add Firefox extensions with some kind of plugin it is going to be browser to rule all browsers. I think that they can manage it, MS has endless resources.
This time, good job MS.
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@Adrian Lee
I did read it, but you still didn’t seem to get it. You don’t need a final decision within a few weeks to “get anywhere”. Apparently the investigation alone was enough to scare Microsoft into doing the right thing.
@Nystor
:rolleyes:
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Tried IE8 and it’s just isn’t compelling to use at all compared to Firefox 3.0 even if MS fixes all the current bugs with it. Also takes forever for MS to release a new version with proper standards support, hello 2008 and just started proper support for CSS2?
Firefox, Opera and Safari is much more nimble and can roll out new versions with new features and better standards support long before MS does.
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Problem, that you seem to ignore, is that MS spends more on Toilet Paper for their employees than Opera earns a year. Resources MS can summon are ENORMOUS. They’ve did that ie8 beta in probably less than a year. Opera is in beta1 for longer and there is no release date ofr beta2 even. Rate at what Opera develops in current snapshots is also VERY slow, so i dont get that:
Don’t underestimate the big MS. They do flops, like vista, but they steadily improve and suddenly they are the one and only with QUALITY product. Not all their products are flops enforced by monopoly, some are REALLY good.
Remember how crappy first visual studio was? Look at the VS2008 and compare. They CAN do it. And I think, that this time they want to do it right.
Heck, their beta and buggy console is better Developer tool than anything Opera had ever.
Firefox 3 is good. True. But if MS manages to plug FF extensions (even part of them) you’ll find, that people will use IE8. Many FF users use FF because they can’t stand IE6. IE7 isn’t good enough, IE8 is. Laziness factor will do the rest.
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i’d use ie8 only if it’s better than ff or km. if ie8 will be customizable and use less ram, then i may use it.
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You think they’ve been working on IE8 for less than a year? I guess that would explain why CSS is all they seem to have improved. No DOM, etc. The improvements in IE8 are nice, but I can’t believe they spent all this time on THIS.
Ah, so because Opera doesn’t rush releases, IE8 will surely kill both Opera and Firefox! We get it now.
No isn’t.
Stop trolling, Microsoft fanboy.
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Nystor, you seem to think that only Microsoft can improve their products. As should be obvious from Opera 9.5 and Firefox 3, that is just a wrong assumption.
By the way, neither XP nor Vista come even close to matching Mac OS X, which was what Microsoft wanted to beat with Vista. So much for your theory
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No, I’m fully aware, that FF and Opera can improve. But I’m also aware, that the reason behind MS failures is in decision making and gneral obstruction that makes working in corporations so ’special’. Thing is, that IF MS somehow manages to create efficient team with good leadership and clear goals they can beat anyone. This is what they did with Visual studio and in overall with .net platform. 5 years ago MS servers were around 5%, now they are around 60-70% and killing linux servers rapidly.
Ergo, MS has resources, resources that both Opera and FF cant match. Thats why I believe that they CAN make IE8 into something good. Because it seems, that they’ve realised that it is good for them to have standard compliant browser, and get rid of that bad rep they get for IE6. Why? Because you pay developer the same, regardless if he codes bad stuff or good stuff. So as well they can code good stuff.
About Opera releases and development - IE8 introduced more innovative stuff than Opera 9.5 beta up to this day. Link? What other FUNCTIONALITY was added? Opera is still the one browser wihtout any form of autoupdate..
FF3 is another story, they’ve completed their process of copying Opera with full page zoom, and introduced few their own inventions.
In IE8, I for one VERY like idea od rss-like page snippets, it is going to be widely adopted because it is cheap to implement and VERY nice for users. FF extension shouldnt take long. Opera, as always, will have to implement it itself (and it will not) because users are cut of from making extensions. Yet another reason to try another browser for wavering users..
Btw sir ‘jub’, IE8 introduced MANY DOM improvements, check your facts.
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“5 years ago MS servers were around 5%, now they are around 60-70% and killing linux servers rapidly.”
ROTFL This must be the most uninformed claim ever posted in this site since Daniel started it. Don’t be such a homer, it will increase your chances of being taken seriously on the internet. No doubt people called you a fanboy…MS servers with 70% market share and killing Linux…jesus christ, what a guy.
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Look at the business segment, not amateur/small-business. Most mid/big companies use MS 2k3/8 Server + Exchange + sharepoint + .net combo. They are the most proffitable part of the market, they are the most influential - just like mid range in computer parts. You can push high end, but it is the middle class that makes money for you. high end makes your name, low and mid-end, make your money.
There MS has almost complete monopoly - share around 60-70%. Why? Point me to alternative to sharepont server. Simply point me to alternative colaborative environment that ~1000 employe company can buy. That company is too small to write it’s own solution, but too big to live without one. Sharepoint is the only one that works. And implementing it means that as well that company can implement Exchange, 2K3 etc. That is the way business works. Any CIO can tell you that. Geek factor is nice, money is even better.
Some data (netcraft)
Apache 76,945,640 49.57% 78,735,581 50.61% 1.04
Microsoft 55,509,223 35.76% 55,709,926 35.81% 0.05
this is total per domains. In business sector it is like 40-60.
Apache had 80% in 2006, all that it lost MS gained. And BTW, Apache mostly runs on windows anyway
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Yeah, MS is ruling the severs market and killing Linux/Unix. Whatever dude, keep your homer glasses.
http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/200801/index.html
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–”Firefox 3 is good. True. But if MS manages to plug FF extensions (even part of them) you’ll find, that people will use IE8. Many FF users use FF because they can’t stand IE6. IE7 isn’t good enough, IE8 is. Laziness factor will do the rest.”–
Nystor has a point there. I remember hearing from some people back in ‘01 that XP was going to be the death of Microsoft. Not so fast. And let’s face it: a standards-complaint IE is what we’ve all wanted, right? Open-standards fans, rejoice. IE 8, in spite of rough edges, actually looks pretty good to me. Not something I’d use all the time, but pretty good nevertheless. Beware of blind anti-MS bigotry as well. If they put out a reasonably good product, admit it.
–”Don’t worry, I’m sure that the Opera guys will take credit for it.”–
And I’m sure all the credit goes to Mozilla, right? Sure. Another thing I remember from Firefox fanboys at the time that Opera 9 was released: “Who really cares if a browser passes Acid2 anyway?” The tune has changed with Gecko 1.9.
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ooops, “standards-compliant” for “standards-complaint” above. Freudian slip.
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… IE8 announced Acid2 compliance shortly after Opera’s antitrust complaint. Do you think they only started working toward passing the Acid2 *after* the complaint was made public? This is the result of months of work, and had to be planned long before…
Opera’s antitrust complaint may have influenced MS to make the latest IE standards mode the default, but Acid2 compliance was obviously already planned (even if not available in the default rendering mode).
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a comment to my previous comment:
Firefox already supports IE8 webSlices and Activities. You can be sure, that both of these are going to be hugely popular (being available in both IE and FF and very clever in concept, RSS for non geeks), again cutting Opera users out. Another small thing that does not work in Opera. There is too many of these things to say it is ‘best internet experience’.
http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2008/03/ie-8-activities-and-webslices-for-firefox/
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WebSlices and Activities are interesting features, but I don’t see either as vital. That’s just me, I guess. I’d trade both of them in IE8 for a little more speed. IE8 is nice, but wow it has a “heavy” feel to it.
I’d rather see Opera try to perfect the features that are already there in Opera rather than to try to mimic every IE/Firefox feature that comes along.
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What about SVG + XHTML?
those are W3C standards that IE8 isn’t supporting.
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Truly Web standard supports to a large extent to IE8. Microsoft has really provided a great facility to Web developers.