Great expectations – what you can expect from our developer tools?
78 CommentsPublished January 17th, 2008 11:45 AM EST By Daniel Goldman
This post was written by Chris Mills, Opera’s developer relations manager and editor of Dev.Opera.
One of Opera’s weak points has always been the lack of decent developer tools available to go along with our browser. I’ve even had some Opera fans say to me that they love Opera, and use it all the time, but they turn to Firefox when they need to debug applications.
This should soon be a thing of the past however – our developers are currently working hard on creating a new set of tools, which should give developers all they need to debug and test their web sites. The first beta, set for release some time in the second half of 2008, should have at least the following features:
- DOM and CSS inspector, which will allow inspection and live updates of CSS and JavaScript
- A JavaScript variable watcher
- A proxy to allow you to debug content on a device if desired, for instance a web application running on a mobile phone (in Opera mobile,) or on a games console. This is a major plus over what other comparable debugging tools have to offer.
The tools obviously won’t contain “everything including the kitchen sink” straight away, but we are running the project in an ongoing fashion, so more functionality will be added as it progresses.
We think that another plus our tools will have is general speed of running – we are aiming to keep them lightweight and fast, while providing as much essential functionality as we can fit into them. And to have this running in the Opera desktop browser – which is itself fast and lightweight – will mean a productivity gain for developers everywhere.
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using
for the start – second half of 2008 in reality means 2009, so i’m going to say just that – dont bother. in 2009 number of pages activey ignoring opera will be so great, that it is not going to matter anymore – there will be no users. most (all?) mayor pages as of today are broken at some point in opera. and with each passing day this situation is getting worse, not better. it is already too late if you ask me, opera mobile can save you for a while, but people are not going to use it, no matter how good it is, if pages will break, and break they will.
you said it good, for TOO long opera lacked dev tools, devs couldnt give a damn now, but, if you want some thoughts, you’ll recieve
so here we go:
first, each second spent on making them ‘lightweight’ and faster is a second wasted.
second, making it ‘lightweight’ is a common and convenient excuse for not making it feature-full. firebug isnt the fastest of tools i’ve used, nor is visual studio, but i gladly trade speed for intelisense or on-the-fly variable refactoring etc.
so dont make it lightweight when that means stripping functionality (and it always does, so dont try to cover it up, we’ve been there before)
functionality that MUST be there:
EVERYTHING that firebug has. it really is that simple – EVERYTHING.
ONE person wrote firebug as an after-work side-project in one year, you ‘are working on it’ for more than 1.5 year now, and still have only the basics, so i dont want to know how you’ve wasted this time, or what were you doing, i dont care. you had the time, so no excuses – EVERYTHING firebug has.
and one more thing, that opera does not provide – user agent changing ability, that current one sucks.
btw. that device proxy.. c’mon
in meantime try this – http://demo.eyeos.org/ – and tell me is it 40% or 50% of functionality that does not work in opera?
using
Situation getting worse? Quite the opposite. More and more sites have started working in Opera.
And clearly the troll ignored this part:
“more functionality will be added as it progresses”
Oh well. Can’t expect rational arguments from someone who willfully ignores facts.
using
By the way, w2, what is your purpose here? If you hate Opera so much, just go away and waste your RAM with Firefox bloat instead.
using
I’m not a web devoloper so i don’t care ‘technically’ nor am i a ff fan (not that’s anything but it annoys me) but w3 makes a decent point, if someone has done it all after work and even on someone else’s code and APIs then opera devs should be able to do it BETTER on their own code.
using
Can Firebug do debugging on any device? On a mobile phone? Sounds to me like Opera’s dev tools have already gone far beyond what Firebug can do.
using
At the moment, I find the error console in the desktop client useful.
using
Great stuff, except for the second half of ‘08 news. I believe some other source mentioned that alphas might be released by Christmas ‘07, so that’s a delay of over half a year.
That’s rather disappointing to me…any reason for this?
using
Second half of 2008 sounds sooo much later than “yesterday” when it’s desperately needed!
Could you realease something sooner? Like Opera with less than completely vague JS error messages? (currently everything is either “type error” or “syntax error” and you’re left guessing why and what, while Firefox’s error messages most of the time are close to being exact problem solution).
using
Althought the tone is a little over the top, I do agree with a lot w2 has to say. Firebug has been out for atleast a year and is the “gold standard” for web dev tools now. Opera is just taking note and getting into the game. I believe (read: hope) that dev tools will increase Opera’s compatibility since people will be able to more easily test and debug in Opera. Now it is painful as the javascript-based tools are impressive but very limited. Another point where we agree, i think the device proxy should fall into the afterthought category. I am quite aware Opera is focused on mobile devices but Opera is wayyyyy late on dev tools so to make device proxying delay it would be sad imo. Opera is playing catch up now. I’m not sure if that has been realized.
I hope the ‘javaScript variable watcher’ includes breakpoints and things of that nature in js. So the dates
No, it can’t but Joe Hewitt (creator of firebug) has created firebug for the iphone. So there is that…
using
I disagree that debugging on devices should be an afterthought. Mobile browsing is growing faster than desktop at the moment apparently. Clearly there is a desperate need for proper dev tools on other devices. Opera as THE cross-platform browser should be able to deliver proper cross-platform devtools and basically make it top priority because it makes good business sense.
using
in fact it isnt even playing catch up, they are at the stage of talking about playing the catch up game.
market evaluates stuff it can see, market cant see tools, it can only see the ’statements’. statements do not make anyone’ job any easier. and to be perfectly honest, i dont believe in opera statements.
working hard means working hard, and if they’ve spent over a year ‘working hard on it’ they either were lying or their staff isnt up to the job. or is managed poorly.
and btw. great title: ‘great expectations’. we dont have any great expectations, anything less then firebug is going to be a dramatic failure, that opera conveniently started to prepare us for.
masking it with that proxy stuff is not going to work, it still is going to do nothing usefull on all devices, so great.
using
As harsh as W2 is, he has a point on at least having the functionality of Firebug. I would hope that having dedicated programmers on this would not take as long as it took the firebug to be released.
The beta for these tools should be released now with the current alphas, not half a year away (at best?). Hopefully you wont wait until it is ‘complete’ before releasing them for testing.
I really do hope opera does release these tools in a timely manner. I really like using opera as a browser, but was a developer tool it is not something that i see happening until these tools are released.
Cheers!
using
A little off topic..
I should watch my mouth and pen now, so that I won’t be thrown out of this forum after my first message.. But, I have rarely been so close to swearing in a message..
@W2
I am just interested in one thing. I have been reading all the messages at Operawatch for quite a long time, and there is one thing I really would like to know: WHY are your writing messages here?? I’ll give you credit for one thing: It is obvious that you have quite some computer knowledge – far more than me, sure. But, still, I am quite curious.. Although I have always used Opera, I admit that O has its weak sides where FF has its strong.. (And maybe, even if you would disagree: the opposite) A discussion about Opera’s weak sides should only be posistive, and from what I see you are allowed to voice your opinion any time.
But – your messages border on being hateful, far more than informative. I am just curious.
Are you here to
1) INFORM people about Operas weak sides?
2) ACTIVELY DISCOURAGE people from using Opera?
3) Doing your share – IYO – of the job to put O – browser and company – out of the business? If so, why??
4) Proving that “Opera is a company that is cheating and lying to its costumers?”
5) P… people off?
6) Just having too much time?
I’m just curious because the unpoliteness and spite you spread in these messages goes far beyond just telling that FF is what people should use, and is far beyond almost anything I have seen anywhere else, and I do spend some time on software forums.. I will read your posts with more interest if you just explain to me why you write them…
using
w2 keeps up his trolling:
“market evaluates stuff it can see”
You know nothing about the market, as has been demonstrated by your blatantly false statements about it in the past.
“we dont have any great expectations”
The troll does not speak on behalf of everyone, but he does not realize that of course.
“anything less then firebug is going to be a dramatic failure”
Considering your complete ignorance about the market, such stetements from you show nothing more than continued ignorance.
using
w2 (AKA whatever2) is just pissed off at Opera because they banned him from my.opera.com after he posted nude pictures of his underage sister on the site. Pathetic indeed.
using
Nelson aka perv/w3/meh – you are oh so funny, you were banned too, for stupidity in your case.
i was anti-opera, and was banned for asking too many unfortunatelly pointy questions (like where are develpoer tools, in 2004, or why oh why google doesnt like opera so much in 2005 – surpisingly these questions are even more valid today than then), you were banned just for stupidity, that for a fanboy is a great achievement, to be banned by company you defend in every post. priceless.
and about your ‘lies lies lies’ comments, c’mon, that doesnt work anymore.
using
w2, I’ve asked you multiple times already to stop with your trolling. As Steinsk said very nicely, your comments here aren’t offered in a constructive manner. You always seem to hijack the discussion in the comments. We would all greatly appreciate it if you stopped posting here.
using
LOL, w2. Nice try. We all remember why you were banned. More lies are not going to save you. You have been caught lying repeatedly, and when that has happened you have simply stopped responding to people’s posts and moved on to the next story on Opera Watch.
You still haven’t explained why you bother trolling here, though. What are you trying to achieve?
using
I had rather hoped the timeline would be sooner than that – I have a running battle to keep my Firefox-fanboy co-workers on track with testing in Opera. The lack of dev tools is a reasonable complaint.
In the meantime, perhaps it would be possible to make it easier to access what’s already there.
Think of it this way: for everyone out there who raves about Firebug in between the crashes it causes, a lot of people only do one thing with it: they load up the CSS and/or HTML and tinker with it, looking for a bugfix.
Opera already has an awesome “reload from cache” feature, it’s just buried in the menus. If you were to add a toolbar that had buttons for “view source”, “view css” and “reload from cache”; that’d be an excellent start.
That and a “force reload from server for the love of mike don’t reload from cache” button
using
OT, but sadly nec.:
You guys should not jump on a troll. Ignore with 100% consistency.
Why?
When interested newbies like me read this to the end, they can not distinguish the troll from rest any more.
I must admit slight bewilderment, as this rule is found respected in the least informative forums imagineable. Get wise, guys, please.
Yet, I noticed Opera’s goals, and I’ll wait for the devtools. Thank you. I like professional work more than marketing oriented, or plainly unprofessional, and pretty, bloatware. Good work needs time. It’s getting so rare, that enormous amounts of people with best intentions never learned it exists. They are up in the management level all over meanwhile, and everybody is unknowingly paying the price. I wish Opera, and anyone involved in serious work, that these values will outlast. ThumbsUp!
using
- yes, breakpoints for debugging is in
- the proxy approach has important potential, not only for device
- we need to BEAT Firebug, and we know that
using
w2, I use Opera almost all the time, and I seldom have site trouble.
using
I’m with Phil on the lack of site trouble. None of the sites I use on a regular basis have problems in Opera. Of course I don’t usually browse sites that were coded my Mozilla fanboys, so I don’t have to worry about compatibility issues.
BTW: W2, I though Firefox had real-time spell check? Is it broken in the build you’re using, or are you just ignoring the red squiggles under your words?
Daniel, does you website’s control panel have a global IP block list? If so, just throw W2’s IP in it.
using
about time
the current developers tools you can add are good but they’re still external…
using
I’m always bewildered when I hear people knock Opera because Firefox has better Developer Tools. When you consider the vast percentage of people browsing the web, how many are actually, genuinely involved in web-site development? 2%? 3%? I doubt school curiculums have changed that much that all children are now leaving school with a healthy background in Java and CSS. Firefox is a geek browser, for hard-core geeks who want to fiddle and customise for whatever geek purpose they are engaged in – Opera, by contrast, seems to me to be better placed to bypass the geek crowd and instead go directly for the mainstream surfers out there, in which case Developer Tools become a very low priority.
using
Phil and GT500, you are special. The forums are plagued with cists that don’t support and even go as far as to block opera.
A few sites that have issues:
cvs (blocked), captialone (security error; can’t login), bankofamerica (security error; can’t login), new your times images (blocked), browser shots (onhover breaks in 9.5), gmail2.0 and digg (high cpu on older comps). That’s all that comes to mind off the top of my head. The problem is not firefox fan boys designing sites. That would actually be ideal for the most part. The problem is most of the internet things there are 2 browsers (IE and FF or IE and Netscape [which is what ff is id'd a]).
sample code from 85+% of the web:
/*insert crappy browser detection here
*/
function majorFunctionality() {
if (isIE) { ... }
if (isNetscape) { ... }
// no other browser exists... nothing else to do
}
using
No, that’s not true, because that’s so many people love Opera: the fastest browser on earth.
Well that’s your personal preference. I guess that’s why the computing world has firebug. Now instead of trying to duplicate firebug, why don’t we make one that’s fast? Fill the gap! Why are trying at all cost to get Opera to be like Firefox? That’s pointless, we already fx, why duplicate it? Make something that’s unique in a different way (speed, security, features in the box, lightweight, integrated mail….). That way, people can choose between a variety of browsers, not just clones.
using
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the messages. I can understand your disappointment at the timescale – I sure wish it could be sooner too. But we want to take our time and create something that is really worthwhile, rather than just rushing something lacklustre out. I think that if we made any mistake, it was underestimating the amount of time it would take to achieve this.
Firebug has 12 years of development behind it, all in all, I think you’ll find, so we can’t be expected to have *everything* it has IMMEDIATELY, but we’ll get there wth something feature rich and fast before too long.
Also, I mentioned about the beta being second half of 2008. We should have an alpha earlier than that, but I can’t say exactly when
Site trouble – Opera now has a very small amount of troubles with working with major sites, due to the great work done by David Storey and the open the web team. A lot of the time, problems are caused by bad web development practices rather than Opera sucking (for example when Banks are so paranoid that they use browser detection badly and decide to say, lock out every browser except IE6 and FF2 because they are the oly ones they can be bothered to test in, and they need to be sure of security
)
using
**** – the “can’t” in the first sentence should be a “can”
using
Hmm, can’t say I’m happy about the timescales, it’s a matter of fact that I have to use FF a lot in my day job because Firebug is one of the most useful tools out there when coding HTML/CSS. That means dealing with all the reasons I prefer to use Opera over Firefox and getting frustrated with it.
The people I know who prefer to ignore Opera when they can get away with it will continue to do so because they ***** and moan about Opera when it does something differently and they can’t work out how to fix it.
Guess we’ll have to put up with it though, it better be worth the wait is all I can say.
using
I written about the Dev tools for Opera just yesterday on my blog.
The real problem I found is the lack of a good source validator like the HTML Validator extension … you can use the Ctrl+Alt+V but an on-board, solid and efficient Tidy validator (for (x)HTML, CSS and Javascript) will be great. And so you haven’t to send (manually) the request to W3C servers but all work will be done on your PC (and without you have to do nothing… the green icons tell you all you want to know
)
This is my opinion
using
I think this is good news, devtools. I sure hope you can compete with Firebug; it would be nice to see a tool that would be so good in Opera, and it might even spark Firebug to improve. Though there is not much room for improvement.
Good luck, and we can’t wait!
using
Engelium has a good point. Validation is important, and a built-in validator (or even added support for a third-party validator software, if it’s found on a user’s computer) would be a great benefit.
It would also be great if there was some sort of syntax highlighting. You know how Quanta+ uses Tidy to do syntax highlighting? That would be great if Opera’s dev tools could do it as well. It’s so much easier to read code that has certain things in certain colors, so that they stand out better.
using
GT500, the current DOM snapshot of the current javascript dev tools already provide syntax highlighting and line numbers. So we can be pretty sure, the native tools will have those features, too.
using
A built in validator might be a nice little extra, but it’s the debugging tools that will make it worthwhile. Right click -> Inspect, along with the way that firebug highlights elements on screen when you hover over them in the code viewer is awesome, as well as the intelligent inline css editor.
If you know how to code, a built in validator isn’t of that much use, and is something you probably do at the end of a project, or section of code, to check things.
using
I agree with Adrian Lee: “If you know how to code, a built in validator isn’t of that much use”
Try to use http://pspad.com tidy-validator is intergrated.
Opera’s source viewer is useless as editor the same way Firefox is. It is not possible to edit the source in Firefox at all. I don’t get, why you are not able to see firefox extended with firebug just like a developertool. Why should Opera asa copy existing functionality of other software?
using
no, you dont. really, implementing some cosmic stuff is not needed. just copy firebug.
for pete sake, it isnt beauty contest – i want my tools, webdevs want their tools, we dont give a damn whose are better, it doesnt matter. have you ever ranked js debugging capabilities of firebug and visual studio? did anyone ever cared to do such mindless thing? they both do their job ok, it is all that matters, we dont care what is ‘better’. remove your browser size out of the equation and simply get the job done. if you treat is as a race – youve already lost it, so dont bother racing, just do for once what market expects – set of working, ‘ok’ tools. it isnt that hard, everybody else got them already.
using
I disagree 100% but we are all entitled to our own opinons. I personally don’t have w3 documents in my brain and from time to time (gasp) i make mistakes (typos, weird nesting, etc.). I find inline validation very useful and I benefit from it. It’s also surprising every now and then to actually surf to a site with valid (x)html. It reminds me that some people have brains that they use.
The benefit of Opera’s editor is that you can apply changes… so it has a use… and therefore is not useless. The thing i miss from Firefox’s source viewer is line numbers… which would mean a lot more if Opera correctly reported line numbers from inline script errors (bug #278053).
I think web devs don’t test and debug in opera because there is nothing to test and debug with. I think firebug attributed to firebug’s quick rise to fame in some capacity. Firebug is the web dev tool now. It doesn’t have competitors. It makes advanced web dev and javascript debugging a piece of cake. So the reason opera needs dev tools is so people will develop in and test their sites in opera more often. Over time, it should cut down on “your browser is blocked” messages… hopefully.
using
Ummm… DUH! You lost me there. On this we don’t agree. Firebug is the best web dev tool out now. If it wasn’t its name wouldn’t be thrown around like this. No one talks about vis studio for debugging (outside of IE). No one talks about drosera (safari). None of them compare to firebug is why. So out of all the debug tools, firebug is better. That’s why I use it. Quality is a factor. It’s the best tool available for the job. If there was a tool better than firebug, i would use it for development. I think that rule is the same for 90% of web devs.
Lots of people in general hate the performance issues of firefox. They love the extensions though. People go where the tools are. If opera just so happened to have the best dev tools, this would influence Opera’s usage even if only for a backup/development browser which is how i use firefox. Anytime I need to debug some css or js, to firebug i run.
In theory and in conclusion, if opera had the best dev tools, the devs would come.
using
Firebug is the best, maybe. But in the most important (as of today) task (JS debugging) i claim, that VS is enough for the job, in fact i think it surpases the Firebug because it is a full blown IDE, that allows you to avoid simple mistakes (like keeping naming conventions in check etc small but VERY usefull stuff).
With the rest of the post i agree for ages now, no need to convince me.
But, there is one point i think you are a bit off – devs need the tools for EACH platform they develop. Untill all engines work the same way, you need debuggers for all browsers. Opera is the only one to not deliver, so it is mostly removed from support, just it isnt possible (with economicaly viable resources – remember, that opera is only 1%). Thats why nobody is going to user opera ALONE as a dev browser. And if all the tools are ok, dev is going to use the most the one that comes with his favourite browser – firebug again. But he at least is going to give opera a try, just like i did with ie7, and might use it.
You cant develop web apps in Firebug alone, you NEED to have VS open and running, just because otherwise you risk serious problems later on. Firebug helps you with general-bugs – spelling etc, and with Firefox bugs – it cant help you with IE/Safari/Opera bugs. Thats why you run VS along and IEWebDevToolbar.
I stress again – this discussion doesnt have so much merit when we are talking about simple stuff, like homepages, but it is VERY important when you take sites like demo.eyeos.org into consideration. Eyeos is seriously broken – rght click functionality is broken (opera lack of oncontextmenu), you cant reliably fullscreen your aps, scrolling is a ‘bit’ off and TinyMCE does not work, as always. All that and no single line of error in errorconsole. Without serious debugger you have no chance of getting it to work.
using
Very few technical people like firefox just because it is firefox. People like the level of customization, options, and control that extensions provide. I know many, many people that hate firefox, but they use it because the extensions do things for them that are not possible in other browsers. No browser can be customized the way firefox can. That is its selling point. But now I am off topic…
It is sad to hear that the tools will take such a long time to make it to market. C’est la vie.
using
Hmm.. my colegues and co-workers, from management and from the line all use Firefox, and use it because it is compatible with all sites they use AND at the same time isnt IE. FF is the only such browser. Opera and safair both just dont deliver.
Tools arent the reason, same as extensions. these are an extra for them. but, again, it is offtopic
using
Bah… this is the tipical attitude of all Opera users and the miserable market share Opera have is the normal result of this…. Simply the feature (that is only an example however) I suggest is very useful and in fact the HTML Validator extension is very popular (and downloaded)…
You can think what you want about the necessity of knowing the html code (and I think it too) but the reality is that this feature will avoid the use of FF by the users that want it (like me and other thousand of people).
using
@Engelium
What on earth are you talking about? What attitude?
using
uhmm… probabbly attitude isn’t the right word… sorry but I don’t know english very well so I use babylon to help me
However I want say that generally opera users prefer to stay on their (closed) opinion.
using
Daniel, you never answered my question. Does you website have a global IP ban list?
Seriously though, it’s hard for Opera users to enjoy the fact that we are getting some great developer tools when some Mozilla-brainwashed dork posts a bunch of propaganda about how nothing can ever be better than the tools available for Mozilla’s garbage. W2, Daniel is far more lenient than I would be if this were my website.
To all of the other Opera fans who come here and read Daniel’s excellent blog I say we just ignore W2. He obviously doesn’t have the mental capacity to understand what we are trying to tell him, so it’s not worth arguing with him. Maybe he’ll go away if we ignore him…
using
adding functionality != costumization
Opera is the most costumizable browser on Earth per user interface. That’s a fact. How many percent of FF’ users are able to use DOM inspector to find IDs of browser interface elements to be able to costumize Firefox using userchrome.css ??? Fearphage, you are just a demagog.
Just switch to FF and your life will be much more happy.
using
Here’s a list of 249 extensions that are strictly for customizing the UI. All the extensions that I use (firebug, html validator, greasemonkey, and adblock+) all have options to add visual cues to the ui.
In the same way that userjs, skins, keyboard setups are a part of customizing opera, extensions are merely another means for customizing firefox. It just so happens that extensions can do things that are not reproduceable in Opera. Even the simplest things such as adding new toolbars are still not possible in Opera. Keep in mind there are things in firefox that are unchangeable or not easily changeable as well. Opera nor firefox are perfect.
I think it would serve you better to worry about and try to control what you’re doing because what you do/say has no bearings on what I will do and how I will be doing it.
@GT500: W2 is not a very sweet or nice person but he does make good points from time to time. Being painfully truthful doesn’t seem ban-worthy to me.
I would personally prefer that W2 tone down his rage as well so he can be taken more seriously. I had to do the same thing. Some options, decisions and policies of Opera upset me as well but there is nothing I can do about them at this point. I understand where he is coming from.
using
Trolling is. Fortunately for him, Daniel has more patience than he deserves.
Given all the drivel, hate, rants and nonsense he has posted in this website and the desktop team blog over the last year he would have to win the Noble Peace Prize in order to be taken seriously…wait, Kissinger won one of those…forget it…whatever2 cannot be taken seriously no matter what.
I’m sorry you got upset and had anger management issues due to the decisions made by a browser company located in Norway like whatever2 has. It must be painful.
You come from Poland too?. :p
using
@GT500, w2 has certainly been causing lots of havoc with his constant trolling, however I’m not sure banning would be the correct thing to do.
using
fearphage: w2 is not “painfully truthful”. He is constantly caught lying, and when he is, he stops posting until the next blog post is published by Daniel.
Engelium: “However I want say that generally opera users prefer to stay on their (closed) opinion.”
And Firefox users don’t? What “closed opinions” do opera users “generally prefer to stay on”?
using
@ frame
I refer for example to the opinon of Adrian Lee but is only an example as others 1000… I too think that you have to know code if you want make a website, but this is not a reason to exclude the possibility of having an onboard validator as HTML validator extension.
Other example? you can surely manage userjs throught the normal Explorer, but the userjs manager is not a splendid tool? why Opera hasn’t an integrated userjs manager as powerful and simple as the addons manager of FF?
If you ask to opera users generally the answer is that you can live without it (or something like this)
This is the “closed opinions opera users generally prefer to stay on”
using
@Engelium
I don’t see this attitude you keep referring to. In fact, you are misrepresenting Adrian’s position. This is what he actually wrote:
“A built in validator might be a nice little extra, but it’s the debugging tools that will make it worthwhile.”
It might be a nice little extra, he said! How is that a “closed opinion”?
And I really don’t understand what User JS has to do with anything. Are you saying that if someone says that he personally doesn’t need a User JS manager, he is closed-minded?
Sorry, but you are not making sense.
I see lots of Opera users asking for better management of User JS, by the way. So you are clearly making things up and even lying about what Adrian said. Pathetic.
If anyone has a “closed opinion” it is people like you, who have to make up lies about other people and over-generalize a group of people with diverse opinions on things that aren’t really relevant to the dev tools but which you insist on making stuff up about.
using
I can agree that Opera people can be hostile but which fan bois aren’t, really? The mere mention of Opera lite (an alternate version of opera without mail, rss, torrents, etc; just the browser) is a sure fire way to get criticized, mistreated, and lose friends quickly. The community is full of these people.
For example:
Werwolf: “Just switch to FF and your life will be much more happy.”
—–
@frame: I have yet to see him lying or anything. I have seen him make a few points that I have agreed with. I don’t agree with or support everything he does or how he does it. But at times he echoes things I and perhaps other users have already said or been thinking.
This is a good point but I find that fewer and fewer sites that I use are incompatible with Opera. However, there will always be douchebags who spend hours hacking things into shape to work in IE and then block all browsers that aren’t FF or IE. I won’t mention any names specifically but the initials are G, O, O, G, L, E. It’s a vicious cycle.
- No one supports/tests in Opera because it has very little market share.
- People use Opera and it doesn’t work for some sites so people use another browser OR Opera masks as another browser for the site to work
- Market share stays in place or rises very slowly
- Wash, rinse, repeat.
Firefox’s lackluster performance leaves much to be desired in my community. I work with a lot of mac users so coming from Safari or Opera to firefox is like going from a Lamborghini Diablo to a Hummer (one has speed; the other has unlimited utility).
—-
@chris mills/opera: I assume a javascript profiler is one of the things that will be included (in time) in the toolkit, correct? Also, will the tool itself be extensible? I know firebug (not firefox) has extensions of its own.
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Engelium: Uh, did you actually read Adrian’s comment? He wrote: “A built in validator might be a nice little extra.” Looks like you just defeated your own claim there.
What does User JS have to do with anything? This is completely off-topic, but where did you hear this “general answer”? If you read the forums you will see lots of Opera users requesting a User JS manager.
Are you knowingly spreading falsehoods about Opera users, Engelium?
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@fearphage
I would guess that the reason for the hostility when someone brings up Opera Lite again is that it’s been discussed to death and any claims that it is needed have been thorougly refuted. People are getting fed up with having to repeat the same arguments over and over again to refute the same bogus claims.
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@heh: Again with the same hostility. Unnecessary and unbeneficial are matters of opinion. I personally get no benefit out of Opera’s mail client. It is unnecessary to me. The fact that Opera Lite would not benefit you is irrelevant in the big scheme of things. Widgets also don’t benefit me but that doesn’t matter to anyone but me and maybe other people who don’t use widgets. The benefits (although they are concrete) do not have to be. If it makes you, i, or others more comfortable or pleased, that is all that is required for a feature, bug fix, etc. You believe that Opera Lite is unnecessary and possibly unbeneficial. I respect that. You are free to feel and think how you want. However, when you interpret your opinion and feelings as factual data then that is where the problems come in. Opera Lite is as unnecessary to you as adding a torrent client to a browser was for me. I do not wish to discuss this in greater detail… at least not here but realize that your opinions and beliefs are not a justification to shoot down a feature. You don’t have to support it, but not liking something is not a valid reason to add a feature/option. Many people complained about the FF+IE compatible shorcuts but Opera still added them. The benefit was for users switching from other browsers. It was not about what you and I desired. I personally would prefer that Opera didn’t add any more built-in clients but I simultaneously respect that some users would benefit from additional clients. Opera Lite (to me) is merely an avenue to opt-out of additional functionality which is currently unavailable.
If Kestrel added a pdf reader, gnutella client, and XYZ we’d all be stuck with it. Some people have complained about and said that Opera doesn’t need and shouldn’t add developer tools. The darker side of me hopes that this feature and functionality is forced upon these people the same way widgets and torrents were pressed upon everyone. It seems fair enough to me.
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To avoid a long and drawn out discussion that’s been done a million times already, I’ll just state that Opera Lite isn’t necessary because you can choose to use external client for all those extra features. If it had actually been impossible, you might have a point. But it isn’t. You don’t need Opera Lite to use something else. To be completely consistent, I assume that you think that Firefox “forces” bookmarks on you too, eh?
But hey, if you define “hostility” as “anyone who disagrees with me”, then I guess there isn’t really any point in trying to reason with you in the first place
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really I didn’t understand the reason of your reaction… I’m not a troll… I’m a proud opera user since years… I also manage the italian site of Opera and a blog in witch I write of this software… I love opera and so my critic be due to this fact
but probably my difficulty with english is the reason of misunderstanding…
No… but if someone tell me that I needn’t an UserJS manager (and this is what I would tell you) than he is closed-minded… and as I’ve write above this is only an example (that i see in my life…)
I hope you understand now the misunderstanding
PS
about adrian lee opinion read also the next comment: http://operawatch.com/news/2008/01/great-expectations-what-you-can-expect-from-our-developer-tools.html#comment-71854
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“fed up” and “bogus” both express negative connotation. Perhaps English is not your native tongue so you may not have been aware of this. I can accept that.
Opera is not and has not been adding features/functionality out of necessity (widgets, irc, torrents). The irc and torrent clients are easily out shined by virtually any other client on the planet. They didn’t add them to fill some missing gap or improve on some other client. Its there for people who have very simple irc and torrent needs/requirements. In my opinion, widgets are convenient on devices and useless on the desktop. In either case, they are not necessary. There are many features you and I both want that are far from necessary.
I will assume this is sarcasm and that you are not mentally-handicapped. (Sarcasm is also often perceived as negative in connotation, just for the record.) Bookmarks are almost a basic requirement for any browser with a gui… as is the address bar, back and forward buttons, etc. I hope you will agree that torrents are not a fundamental aspect of web browsers. The same could be said for mail and irc. If you’ve ever used Opera Mini, you will notice it doesn’t have these clients because they are not required to effectively browse the web. However, it does support bookmarks.
Feel free to continue this discussion in the Opera Lite thread , pm me on myopera, or we can end the discussion here as we are venturing further and further off topic.
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@Engelium, who told you that YOU don’t need it?
@fearphage, what’s useless in your opinion doesn’t really help a whole lot since there are more people out there than you. And it’s interesting that you get to decide when a feature is “forced” or not. You are apparently the god who decides what a “fundamental aspect of web browsers” is
Your argument in a nutshell is that if you don’t want or need it, it shouldn’t be in a browser or a suite. Which shows the folly of even trying to reason with you because you are not interested in looking objectively at this.
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BTW Engelium, your criticism isn’t of Opera. You are attacking Opera users by over-generalizing and lying about them. You did lie about Adrian, and there’s no getting around that. It’s amazing that you ignore all the Opera users who have requested a User JS manager and focus only on some mythincal group of users who are telling you that you don’t need it. Selective about facts, and making up things about other people? Sigh.
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BTW Engelium, your criticism isn’t of Opera. You are attacking Opera users by over-generalizing and lying about them. You did lie about Adrian, and there’s no getting around that. It’s amazing that you ignore all the Opera users who have requested a User JS manager and focus only on some mythical group of users who are telling you that you don’t need it. Selective about facts, and making up things about other people? Sigh.
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Oh, and fearphage chose ignored this point, and went with a red herring instead: You don’t need Opera Lite to use something else. Whether Opera adds features out of necessity or not is not relevant to whether you can choose something else if you want to or not.
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*chose to ignore this point
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Strangely you seem to think Opera Lite is not warranted and you felt the need to express that opinion but my opinions are useless. That sounds objective.
In opera, all functionality/features are forced upon everyone because there are no alternate builds. A feature (good or bad) is forced upon everyone all the time. Alternatively in safari, ie, and ff, the dev tools (for instance) are external tools. The vindictive side of me hopes that is not the case in Opera.
PLEASE ANSWER THIS: Do you think a torrent client aids you in browsing the web, etc? Ditto for IRC. Things that directly affect or improve the act of browsing the web (you know its called a web browser) are things I categorize as fundamental or at least things that improve that experience. I don’t use Speed Dial but it offers a benefit from a web browser standpoint so if Opera made an Opera Lite, it would be logical for it to be included. Same with userjs, bookmarks, back and forward navigation, mouse gestures, wand (don’t use it), etc. These are things that directly affect and/or impact the act of browsing the web. I was not attempting to be God but merely a logical person. For the same reasons, my text editor doesn’t and shouldn’t play dvds. I acquired it to manipulate text. Anything beyond that, is beyond the scope of its name. This is what wikipedia thinks a web browser is:
They also classify it as additional functionality. The first paragraph sounds sort of like fundamental things to me while later they talk about additional/extraneous/superfluous functionality. It’s this additional functionality that pulls applications from the browser realm and into the internet suite realm. Its like I or some other logical person wrote/edited Wikipedia. Crazy. If you can not distinguish between things that are directly related to a web browser and those that are not, then perhaps you have much larger problems.
This is a false statement. There are multiple things that I have no use for that logically belong in a web browser. All of the excess clients makes sense in a suite. I’m not sure a suite really has strict limits of what to include. However, Opera ASA consistently and purposefully advertises Opera as a web browser or browser. I have yet to see one opera endorsed page with the phrase “Opera Suite” or “Opera Web Suite”. Feel free to correct me here. When I originally downloaded Opera, I was under the influence that I was downloading the Opera web browser. I was not aware of the swiss army knife hiding inside. Over time more and more things are added and some don’t even have off switches (widgets for example). Some have off switches that don’t thoroughly do their job. They bundle it up and you have no choice but to consume it or switch browsers.
If I was the only one in the community that wanted Opera Lite, then I would say you maybe have a point. Opera lite (like a UserJS manager and inline-spellchecking) are consistently and repeatedly requested in the community. I’m not sure how popular things need to be before Opera acts on them. For the most part, Opera’s shroud of secrecy prevents them from discussing what they will add and won’t add. Perhaps you don’t understand. No one (that I know of) wants Opera Lite to replace the current Opera edition. I (we) would just like a separate build that has Opera-with-browser-functionality-only. That’s all. I know this is a hard pill to swallow for some and while it enrages others. This is something I’ve been wanting and requesting and waiting for quite a while and I am passionate about it so yes it is difficult for me to remove my feelings from the discussion. I apologize for being human.
I’m not sure I fully understand this. You don’t need mail to use Opera. You don’t need IRC to use Opera. There are lots of things Opera has that no one needs. I don’t exactly understand the point here. “We all have the option to use something else” does that mean another browser? I could switch browsers as could anyone else, but I would prefer that Opera improve and take my wants and desires into consideration instead of me using another browser.
@heh: From my earlier explanation, did you realize how you were/are showing hostility? I realize that I am and its not accidental. When people are attacked, it is natural to defend one’s self. Sometimes this defense comes in just as harsh or a worse manner.
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Yeah, like Firefox’s bookmarks, extensions, Places, live bookmarks, etc. are forced upon everyone. I get it.
People who want Opera Lite mistakenly believe that it would make a real difference. Reality is that Opera Lite is not needed to use external e-mail clients and such. The best thing to do is to educate the mistaken Opera Lite crowd.
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But you aren’t forced to download chatzilla, fireftp, and a plethera of other extensions. Firefox is a platform on which to build. Opera is the finished product for the most part.
You are approaching the situation from the wrong direction. The difference it will make is that its something that we are requesting so it will be pleasing to us for them to deliver it. You see. The people want something so it would benefit those people to receive it. Do you understand?
There’s nothing to educate. You have a misconception of why I want Opera Lite. It’s mostly based on principality. I know for a fact that I will not be using the mail, rss, irc, etc clients. What benefit do I receive by downloading that unused code every friday?
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You are “forced” to download the bookmarks feature, extensions framework (XUL is extremely bloated), Places feature, live bookmarks feature, etc.
No, I am pointing out why Opera Lite would be a waste of time/resources.
There is. As I pointed out, the Opera Lite crowd often thinks that Opera Lite would magically make Opera render webpages faster.
What benefit do you receive by downloading the bookmarks feature, extensions framework (XUL is extremely bloated), Places feature, live bookmarks feature, etc. in Firefox?
Keep ignoring these points that show your double standards, won’t you
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I don’t consider bookmarks to really be a feature but a requirement for a gui-based browser. Live bookmarks sound like an advanced/improved type of bookmarks. The other things I can agree with. I don’t even know what the “Places feature” is. I’m not a firefox user but a firebug user. Are any of the included firefox features outside the realm of browsing the web? This is a serious quesiton since I don’t know about every firefox feature. Regardless, Firefox doing the same thing or not would not validate or invalidate the situation.
I’ll let you correct your ownself
Of the minority of users who want Opera Lite, I think the ignorant users who think such things are very low in numbers. However, keep in mind that extraneous clients do have the ability to affect browser functionality. There was a bug (in the last 2-4 months) where disabling the mail client would cause the info panel to crash Opera. Also, disabling/enabling the torrent client was affecting the downloading of some mimetypes. Those are two simple benefits from having a browser-only setup. I can’t be held responsible for ignorant people. I know it won’t render pages faster. That’s not the basis of the request.