I keep getting “The message you selected could not be found. It may have been moved or deleted. Please click the folder again to refresh the view.” at a rate of about 50% anytime I try to access, read, or delete a message.

“The difference is that you keep changing the subject after your claims have been refuted.”

also you seem t ignore the more sensitive aspects of people’ arguments, always ommiting the most important ones, like tools (yea, opera is working on it - this means nothing), and finnaly, stop talking with yourself.

free advice - when you are in an constant urge to talk with yourself, consider seeing your doctor, it might be more serious than it sounds.

“IE-only tech is used on sites that REQUIRE tight OS integration of some sorts”

This claim was refuted, like all other claims from you. You are constantly caught lying and making factually incorrect claims. And when you are busted, you change the subject.

ajax sites require tools to code them good withour unnecesssary effort. opera is around 1% share, and still requires webdevs to work in XXth century way, ‘alert-driven development’.

thing you cant understand, and never will, showing countless time brick-like mentality.

’standards’ are not well-written. there are lots of gray areas, uncertainities and blatant errors in specs. most browsers try to follow the common path, yet opera always seems to know better. that is ok with the standards (opera doesnt break them), but is completly stupid - going against the market, just to fullfill one’ pride. JS date format is one prime example. such a small thing, such a big mess. but you also cant understand it, i presume you’ve never ever written a single webapp.

provide tools, ajax sites will work (as long as anybody cares about opera in 2020, when finally opera co. will relase alpha of their tools). until then, sorry. limited functionality world for opera users. try ff3, they’ve copied full page zoom (without performance penalty that is in opera), got their address bar working lightning fast, and i can control how my tabs behave after i close them! and what opera copied from firefox? lately? nothing.

The ones even Microsoft has agreed with (without implementing them correctly).

“w3c cant agree for years how to call css 2.1 and 3, they are still recommendations.”

CSS 2.1 is called CSS 2.1, and CSS 3 is called CSS 3. Where is the disagreement?

FYI: “Recommendations” is what the W3C calls them. See? You CAN learn from debates online after all!

“one has nothing to do with another. digg.com is a quite neatly coded page, but it fails in opera. same goes with deviantart - none of these use MS propertiary technology, but both have issues with opera.”

Neither of these are standards compliant. Digg works fine in Opera, though. I don’t use DA. What kind of problems are you seeing on Digg and DA?

“somehow both sites were not forced to use IE technology.”

And yet they chose to not be standards compliant.

“IE-only tech is used on sites that REQUIRE tight OS integration of some sorts”

This is clearly a false claim. Do all Ajax sites require tight OS integration?

“first, it is far fetched.”

It looks accurate to me.

“second, this is opera problem, not ms-related.”

That comment was about Firefox, yes?

“reason pages work in firefox are:”

Market share and the Netscape legacy. Simple as that.

“thinking that it dates to times most current web-devs were too young to remember is stupid.”

You are obviously completely oblivious to what’s going on in the web dev industry.

what are the standards? w3c cant agree for years how to call css 2.1 and 3, they are still recommendations. what browser is standard compliant? (100% compliance, or you are not compliant)

“IE has had more than 80-90% of the market for many years.
* Result: Sites are forced to use IE proprietary technologies, locking out other browsers.”

one has nothing to do with another. digg.com is a quite neatly coded page, but it fails in opera. same goes with deviantart - none of these use MS propertiary technology, but both have issues with opera. somehow both sites were not forced to use IE technology. aside from lazy developers, IE-only tech is used on sites that REQUIRE tight OS integration of some sorts, somehow IE-competitors didnt provide their own solution to this problem. i repeat, where is the colaborative work environment, that is a competition to ms-sharepoint?

“The fact is that Firefox is lucky enough to be the offspring of Netscape, and known to most web developers. Even before Firefox, lots of sites automatically worked in “Netscape 6″ and thus the Mozilla suite because they were used to designing specifically for Netscape and IE.”

first, it is far fetched. second, this is opera problem, not ms-related. you obviously didnt do any web-dev lately, because what is common in ff/ie/safari is missing in opera - dev tools, serious dev tools. mozilla provided them from day one. they werent good, but they were steadily improving, then they’ve created a browser you can easily enchance, and thus allowed creation of FireBug. Firebug sealed vicotry for firefox, after FB even kids could write working sites (working in FF and in IE obviously, opera still provides sub-par bookmarklet js-dev-tools). reason pages work in firefox are: there are tools, ff is cool, ff is used by developers themselves so they have provate incentive. thinking that it dates to times most current web-devs were too young to remember is stupid.

So, they can follow standards if they want. But that would mean lost business, as sites developed for older IE versions would not work, so they won’t :

” Hachamovitch said Microsoft is taking a cue in lessons learned from making improvements to CSS in IE7 that made IE more compliant with some standards and less compatible with some sites on the Web as they were coded.” http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,140684-c,internetexplorer/article.html

MS is free to not follow standards, and free to not innovate. But MS is not free to prevent competition from doing so :

” The Court has confirmed that Microsoft cannot regulate the market by imposing its products and services on people. The Court has confirmed that Microsoft can no longer prevent the market from functioning properly and that computer users are therefore entitled to benefit from choice, more innovative products and more competitive prices. ” http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=6270

By bundling IE to Windows, MS imposes IE on its Windows users, forcing them to pay for and keep a software they don’t want. Users are charged via PC manufacturers who buy MS license, and IE cannot be uninstalled when installing browser of choice.

it isnt MS that is to blame for providing technology banks or online-shops use

it isnt MS that made web that way

* Fact 1: IE is not standards-compliant. It provides technology that is not standards-compliant.
* Fact 2: IE has had more than 80-90% of the market for many years.
* Result: Sites are forced to use IE proprietary technologies, locking out other browsers.

If IE had been standards compliant, sites would be standards compliant. So yes, MS is to blame for giving only proprietary and non-standard technologies to web developers.

most of them work very well in FF

Most is not all.

The fact is that Firefox is lucky enough to be the offspring of Netscape, and known to most web developers. Even before Firefox, lots of sites automatically worked in “Netscape 6″ and thus the Mozilla suite because they were used to designing specifically for Netscape and IE.

“all this stuff works in ff. is it MS to blame, that it doesnt in Opera?”

Yes, because IE has kept an environment of browser specific code going, so rather than design according to standards, web developers code for specific browsers, and that means that they leave out anything that isn’t IE or Netscape. Historically. Firefox benefits from the Netscape connection because many sites were created to work specifically in Netscape 6, which uses Gecko, which is the same engine that Firefox uses a newer version of.

IE-tab is an IE engine put into a tab. quite efficient stuff, when you think about IE as a OS tool to update itself. IE as an interface provider is nice, and having problems with winUpdate not working in opera/ff is rather stupid. winUpdate is a service for windows, conveniently shaped as a webpage, it needs tighter link with OS. and im q

other than that it isnt MS that is to blame for providing technology banks or online-shops use. MS provided technology, competitors could do the same (where is non-MS colaborative work environement like sharepoint?) but they didnt.

there arent as many pages REQUIRING you to use IE that you make it to be, most of them work very well in FF, so there is a choice.

it isnt MS that made web that way. that are webdesigners.

provide them with tools (like mozilla did right from the start, supported with community, that opera managed to piss of and segment), documentation (up to date one!) and with some common sense - why, oh why opera is affraid of going along the path other took, and always wants to be ‘the different, thus ignored, one’?

google, yahoo, ms/n, live, amazon, digg, deviantart, sharepoint portals.. etc. all this stuff works in ff. is it MS to blame, that it doesnt in Opera?

IE Tab is using the IE engine in Firefox, right? Then you are still dependent on IE.

MS knows that they are in trouble, so they came up with an answer that didn’t really answer the actual antitrust complaint. It was, simply put, a red herring.

ad2) if opera wanted and implemented activex, windows update would work in opera. somehow firefox with ie-tab managed to overcome ie-dependancy of win-update (dependancy that i can understand).

that opera refuses to work with 90% of world intranets is an opera problem (firefox works with sharepoint services OK) not MS one. MS decided to not support opera, it is their choice.

ad3) i dont understand this one

and yes, MS treated this claim as a buzzing fly, responding in a way that is simply insulting for opera. for the first time in history i agree with MS.

No I don’t. It’s important, but scary. As you say…no matter what they do, they are still cool and good However, it’s not relevant to the issue at hand. In EU monopoly can’t block competition, to create a new monopoly.

Reading the MS arguments, they are not relevant either :

” Microsoft said it’ll co-operate with any Commission inquiry but, We believe the inclusion of the browser into the operating system benefits consumers, and that consumers and PC manufacturers already are free to choose to use any browsers they wish”
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/14345#comment-239776

1. It’s not up to MS to decide what’s best for consumers.

2. Free to choose browsers that are blocked by Windows, is not a free choice, de facto

3. MS doesn’t claim Opera is free to compete, for good reasons