Q&A on Opera’s recent antitrust complaint against Microsoft
55 CommentsPublished December 14th, 2007 1:03 PM EST By Daniel Goldman
Many questions have been raised yesterday and today about Opera’s motives for filing its antitrust complaint against Microsoft with the European Commission.
My collegue, Haavard, wrote a short Q&A answering some of the questions that have been raised here in the comments on Opera Watch and around the Web.
In addition, Opera’s Chief Technology Officer (CTO), Hakon Wium Lie, spoke with Todd Bishop from the Seattle PI about the antitrust complaint. Bishop, whom I met in Seattle last year, posted excerpts of his interview with Hakon on his Microsoft blog.
Hakon also spoke with the fine folks over at CSS3.info.
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using
In my country (Slovakia) has Opera over 10 % market share, but most of users don’t agree with complaint against MS. Thanks for Q and A.
using
I have deinstalled Opera from my computer after 5 years of usage and adviced 10.000 readers (per day) of my website to do the same. I strongly recommend IE7 with IE7 Pro now.
Firefox does not have problem with IE, about 30% (+) people use it. You should look for problems within your company, but nowhere else…
using
“Firefox does not have problem with IE, about 30% (+) people use it.”
Actually, IE still has close to 90% worldwide, and that’s after Google and others have spent billions of dollars trying to fight it. And even today you still have to use IE for many sites.
Anyone who claims that the battle is over is either ignorant or a shill for Microsoft.
Are you even aware of the facts of this case or are you just spewing out insults without knowing the facts?
using
Actually, did Radek Hulán even read the FAQ? Or is he just posting a pre-prepared text without considering the facts?
using
@yay – Firefox has 35% in Czechia, it has similar percentages in France, Germany and Sweden, I am not sure about US:
http://toplist.cz/global.html
using
(not that US would matter for *EU* complaint)
using
Radek this links my come handy for you in the near future
http://www.download.com/3120-20_4-0.html?tg=dl-20&qt=antivirus&tag=srch
http://www.download.com/3120-20_4-0.html?tg=dl-20&qt=spyware&tag=srch
using
Radek Hulán: Opera is in fact not suing Microsoft. It is not a lawsuit. Did you pay attention at all?
Why have you uninstalled Opera? Because you support Microsoft’s monopoly and anti-competitive practices?
You like the fact that IE still has to be used for many sites (like my bank)?
using
Oh, and most people in Czechia are very computer literate, and it’s a tiny market. It doesn’t matter in the big picture. Once internet services become more common and “normal people” start using the net, Microsoft can continue its anti-competitive pratices.
using
Firefox takes 28% market share in Europe
http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2007/07/firefox-takes-28-market-share-in-europe/
That was on July 13, 2007. Now it will be 30% (+), as I said
using
Those stats are useless since they don’t even include all of Europe. XiTi Monitor ignores several countries.
And even if Firefox does have more than 20 per cent, that still leaves 70 per cent for IE, which is still a huge problem, and still lets them get away with their abuse.
But it doesn’t look like anything anyone is writing is getting through to you, so I’m going to stop trying. You have your mind set on supporting anti-competitive business practices, and that’s your choice I guess.
using
Opera’s antitrust complaint against Microsoft has really hit a nerve with many people – particularly those who are keenly aware of the monstrosity that Microsoft represents.
I am certain that there are many users with preferences toward other browsers (Firefox, Safari) who support what Opera is doing here. It might be interesting to begin promoting certain’ pro-Standards events’ on this site during Opera’s (and many users) action against Microsoft. I have a few suggestions:
(First apologies. Although i am a long time Opera user, I do not think I’ve visisted this site before so I’m not certain (need to review older posts) if this is the correct forum for the type of suggestions below. Thanks)
1. A week with no Internet Explorer support (or a day).
Recommendation that during the period of XX to XX (or even a single day), sites display their disapproval with Microsoft by making their sites inaccesible to Internet Explorer. IE users would be redirected to a site (or a page) and would see an explanation along with links to Firefox, Opera, Safari. Commercial sites that would like to participate but not want to lose customers may optionally place a preLoad page (popUp or page displays with all the info and a [Thanks but not now...] link leading them to their destination.
2. A week with Opera.
To display their support for Opera, users are asked to use Opera for a single week (or a single day). This might help spur additional support from Mozilla (who should likewise be involved in this) and perhaps Apple (who will probably not care). If enough users do this, it could very well send a trememdous message to advertisers and major portals about standards and choices.
3. Begin compilation of sites that do NOT support Opera. Since Opera is a standards-based browser, this list represents sites that do NOT support standards and are IE-only friendly. This is a large undertaking but the result would lead to users requesting that these sites comply with the open internet that we all need. Advtertisers of these sites would likewise be contacted. Results and updates could be displayed.
As a result of Microsoft’s involvement in so many areas of the Internet, this issue is not only about anti-competitive practices today but larger issues in the future. Consider this…
MS buys mutliple sites, these sites are IE friendly and cause issues with other browsers. MS builds free portal software and it’s used on thousands of sites but not friendy toward other browsers. MS successfully helps bring .NET to Linux but the underlying tech isn’t friendly to non-IE browsers. Enough Linux servers run this server version to bother enough users. Add these and many other examples and MS slowly begins to take over the web leading to a renewed reliance on their OS (which is currently *very* replaceable).
Users of alternative desktops are then forced to use Windows because IE is only available on this platform. All of this has a trickle effect effecting not only the browser market, but also the desktop market. I realize this train of thought is debatable but it isn’t too far-fetched given Microsoft’s history and their current actions on other fronts.
Thanks! (feel free to edit and repost)
using
People can install *any* browser they want, freely, they can even set it as a default system browser. That is more than enough. Microsoft (or any other private company) should *not* be required to promote competitors browsers, which is what Opera wants. Or shall I require Microsoft to add MyEgo.cz (my webzine) to IE7 Favourites in default Vista install, in addition (or in exchange of) link to Microsoft.com? That sounds silly, right? Well, Opera claims are the same silliness….
What will come next? Calculator producers? Notepad producers? Antispyware and firewall producers?
Sounds like communism to me, force a private company to alter their own product according to what “commission” thinks is best for customers. Huh, since when are (European) commissions right?!
using
@Reboot..
Those are some really excellent suggestions, tho i am sure there must exist a list of non standards sites (they should make it public). however you may run the risk of teh owners/devs of those sites feeling as if they are targetted somehow and may go even further to exclude Opera from using their site.
However, the current course of action doesnt give me much hope as is the case with Windows Media Player, just as how i can’t live with it NOT on my system (i’d feel as if i was cheated or something), there may indeed be people who would feel cheated if IE wasn’t on their system.
p.s.
Radek Hulán needs to take a chill pill before making such drastic recommendations to his site’s visitors/users. if he does indeed feel that Opera is overreacting then surely his actions are an overreaction as well.
using
This complaint really doesn’t have to be a bad thing for Microsoft. A very good solution to the whole mess would allow Microsoft to enter search engine agreements with the other browsers out there to take on Google straightforward against its own current search agreements. If a screen came up showing the different browsers to choose from during the first boot up, and some of these browsers had Live search as default, the could make a ton of money and all the browser developers too. Better yet, Microsoft could develop an API so that browser developers could access more of the operating system features. Hopefully something good will come out of the complaint, but we’ll just have to see.
using
Here is the summary of my comment on this issue:
I fully agree with standard compliance issue and think that the web should be open to all. But I am not sure how strong the argument is against bundling IE with Windows.
http://my.opera.com/community/forums/findpost.pl?id=2365217
using
This is my view
“Weird Al” Yankovic: I’ll Sue Ya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIllRdSzSug
using
@Radek Hulán: “People can instasll “any’ Browser”
Yes indeed, but for many people, is the INTERNET the blue IE icon.
They don’t know any better and will not install another browser cause than they can’t connect anymore to the internet. this thinking had to be changed, and maybe this complaint can help.
using
Actually, IE still has close to 90% worldwide, and that’s after Google and others have spent billions of dollars trying to fight it. And even today you still have to use IE for many sites
find it funny Opera users try and down play Firefox’s share, 10%? sure if you’re measuring stats back in the 1.0 and early 1.5 days. But currently most tracking and stat website’s consistently rate Firefox’s share around the 20-30% mark.
using
I’m undecided at the moment. I don’t know that it is moral to have a governmental body force a change in a companies product. I believe in the priciples of individual freedom, and I feel that Microsoft should have freedom as well. If people don’t like what they do, they can use a different product. I still have not come to a final decision however.
using
steveo:
Actually, IE has around 80% market share. And this is after billions of dollars and many years have gone by trying to do something about it by the likes of Google and IBM. Recently, browser stats show Firefox receding a bit as well.
Making IE lose a few % has been incredibly expensive, and now it seems to be stabilizing and not falling any further. How much money are we going to have to waste to keep fighting IE? This is going to continue forever unless someone does something.
Opera is taking the chance to do something now since the EU is investigating Microsoft.
Would you rather have everyone accept failure and let Microsoft continue to do their thing? Like their attempt to sabotage EcmaScript 4, which one of the Mozilla guys wrote extensively about just a few weeks ago.
So Microsoft keeps doing its thing. And you want Opera to shut up and accept that Microsoft will continue undermining open standards for all eternity.
Radek Hulán:
That’s missing the point. You still have to use IE on many sites.
This is not a lawsuit. Opera is not going to make a single Euro from this.
Did you even pay attention to the details of this case? Sure doesn’t look that way to me. You drag up old arguments that have already been answered and refuted, and wrongly claim that it is a lawsuit when it isn’t.
Before you recommend people to use the browser of a convicted monopolist, maybe you should educate yourself.
using
This had to be done!
MS is forcing monopoly again but this time, in a round about way. If IE was standard’s compliant Opera wouldn’t have a case. Being compliant means MS loses all direct and indirct revenues.
using
“Q: Opera is only doing this out of desperation.”
actually it does
i love the way opera stock goes down, very, very fast for a ‘profitable’ company. anyone who can read trough quarterly reports can see opera true financial condition, but cant see any realistic plan to improve it. bussines plan based on ‘open web standards’. so it is based on something noone cares
Give web developers their tools, they’ll work on their sites to be opera compatible, until then – lol at the antitrust complaint, it doesnt fix anything for developers, and these are the people that shape the web. until opera realises that, lol at the antitrust complaint, these are weapons of the weak. most comments on this matter comming from poland (7%opera share, dropping) are negative.
using
A lot of people and companies complain about Microsoft, and there’s a lot of positive sound in that, but it seems that now Opera complains, people forget Microsoft and attack Opera, whit no good reason.
People who say “I’ve uninstalled Opera”, don’t give any good explanation, well they didn’t give any explanation”
If they don’t want software on their computer that’s made by a company that “complains” about other companies than please uninstall Microsoft today.
Microsoft is the most attacked company but they really sued the most companies.
So uninstall Microsoft today, but remember that you can’t install linux either.
Apple also isn’t the one you want.
Well it’s back to the Amiga I guess
Have a nice weekend
using
You are ignoring the facts (profits, revenue growth, cash) and making a flawed conclusion.
The Opera stock has gone up by 5% so far this month. Again you are ignoring the facts.
Anyone who can read the quarterly reports can see that you are full of hot air. Opera is currently profitable, had a revenue growth of more than 50 per cent, and has lots of cash.
According to ranking.pl, Opera has been below 6% all of 2007, but has incrased from 4.7 per cent in December 2006 to 6.0 per cent in December 2007 (O8+O9), or from 4.7 per cent in Q4 2006, to 5.9 per cent in Q4 2007. Once again it seems that you are getting your facts wrong.
using
whatever2 is back in town!.
How ironic, you must be very pissed with the various Polish Goverments over the last years too since according to your logic it is just a cry-baby asking for more money from the EU founds (money that comes from other EU countries), protecting your economy just to give it time to be competitive…does it ring a bell?.
Surely, you are not are saying that Poland is a weak country and its citizens are a bunch of moaners, are you?. Without the EU laws (the antitrust laws on which Opera’s complaint is based on are just a piece of them) Poland and many other European countries wouldn’t be part of the EU and their economies would be collapsed. Just like Poland asks the EU for protection and help using the EU Laws as the basis, Opera is doing the same thing.
This is pretty basic knowledge that the average citizen of the EU knows…
using
using
enjoing talking with yourself nelson?
using
Nice retord, w2.
using
Correction: retort
Doh, w2 must have infected me
using
From Q & A : “… many sites still require you to use MSIE due to their use of proprietary MS technologies supported only by IE… ”
If MS, having OS monopoly, is given green light to block competive browsers, what will stop them from blocking FF, going forward ?… Then there are no other browsers. EC are not happy with that, and users shouldn’t be either.
Btw. I agree with Nelson (wish he ? could decide on one username, though
)
using
ops… *competive* = competing
using
“If MS, having OS monopoly, is given green light to block competive browsers, what will stop them from blocking FF, going forward ?”
what would stop MS? public outrage. FF is a well-known piece of software with decent cool-factor and recognition. something opera isnt.
it is so well known, that MS went long road to make its products FF compatible (sharepoint portals – they fail in opera, silverlight – developed from the start to work 100% with FF, etc.)
point me to ms product that works 100% in opera. hotmail, live services, soapbox, silverlight etc – ALL of these fail in opera.
MS is a company that makes money, they dont do stupid things, like taking on something that 1/3 of the world loves. they can puke on linuks users or opera users, 1% of market, but they cant with 1/3 market just becaue these people use firefox. and they dont, they really try to look and behave nice.
Whats left to opera after this complaint fails? this is rather desperate move, showing that current resources are not enough to a) provide users with good product (opera desktop isnt competetive with firefox 2, and for sure isnt with firefox 3 – compatibility, extensions..) b) find a way to convine lots of users that opera is free and can use AJAX sites (well, it cant but anyways) c) after 2 years after firebug provide web developers with tools that arent a shame, most compatibility issues are to blame on lack of any tools for opera
everyone of us knows the ‘it doesnt matter what they talk about us, as long as they talk’. this doesnt apply to being laughed at.
because IF the complaint succeedes (very unlikely) opera position will be the same – firefox will take over even easier, opera is not going to suddenly learn how to sell its product (opera desktop) to users, and because world isnt going to be stationary, soon there are going to be opera mini competitors. what complaint opera will fill after these competitors take over?
using
“… what would stop MS? public outrage… ”
Seems like those not supporting Opera, and EC, are supporting MS, and monopoly.
Public outrage ?. How ?. A handful non business FF users boycotting Windows, use FF on Linux instead ?… What about having the law stop monopoly abuse ?
“… soon there are going to be opera mini competitors. what complaint opera will fill after these competitors take over?… ”
Innovation always wins, unless one player owns the league. Indeed, Opera is browser of choice in the free and fast growing mobile web market. Well deserved.
Opera doesn’t make the rules… EC says a company can’t use its monopoly to create a new. Evolution depends on multiple genes. If Windows (monopoly) blocks non IE browsers (competition), then that’s illegal.
Just like in sports, business has rules too. Don’t cross the line.
using
Enjoying getting your *** kicked, w2? You are clearly embarrassed about being caught red-handed beint ignorant about your own country’s history.
Opera is widely known as a great browser. So much so, in fact, that Nintendo came knocking on Opera’s door when they needed one.
using
decided on your nickname nelson?
using
and investor, you completly ignore the public relations factor of bussiness.
today companies sell ‘user experience’ not a product, firefox managed to get to a position like apple’ one – no matter what they do, they are still cool and good. thats the experience that MS has to take into account. remember that firefox is a product 30% internet users use actively – they’ve taken steps to find it, install it, use it. that is enormous user base, and very valuable one, as these are the people that take action. no company will ever choose to f.. with them. thats why MS behaves nicely to them, and FF has nothing to fear from MS so they focus on ff3 development, finding new ways to sell it to users and make money from that.
what opera does? looking at kestrel development as long as fruitless, and fact that desktop marketing isnt there at all STILL, i can only say – too little. kestrel doesnt bring any compatibility fixes ir promised (what mayor page started to be 100% compatible?) and instead we get massive publicity stunt that is as bold as desperate. geek stuff isnt interesting, you know.
“EC says a company can’t use its monopoly to create a new.”
until judge tells, that are only words, thats the way law works
“Innovation always wins”
nope, remember beta-max? remember dvd-ram? what with OLED? OLED isnt mass produced still, because it is more profitable to sell outdated LCD /plasa screens, dvd-ram was in all aspects better than current DVD’s but.. it wasnt sold well, same with beta-max.
no, innovation doesnt mean certain victory, it is only one of factors. problem with current market is, that it isnt the most inportant one. what innovation was in iPhone? you’ve been using stuff that is in iPhone for at least a year before. it was outdated product the day it was released, but it sold in milions and became an icon. no, innovation isnt as important as you make it be.
and nelson, go learn economics a bit yourself, direct feed money is nothing compared with 40mln market EU companies can freely make bussinesses on, ALL parties profit from EU accession of eastern european countries, not only one.
firefox cught up with opera with their full screen zoom. what other advantage of opera there was?
using
] firefox is a product 30% internet users use actively
Are you and Radek the same person? You spread the same lies at least. Neither OneStat, Net Applications or TheCounter list Firefox as being above 15%.
] kestrel doesnt bring any compatibility fixes ir promised
Another lie. Kestrel has many compatibility fixes.
] FF has nothing to fear from MS so they focus on ff3 development
Yeah, Mozilla never does politics. Another lie. Three so far! Wow, is that a new record?
using
Just like someone said in the comments, I find it quite shocking that the most hostile reactions against the complaint filed by Opera come from some citizens of eastern EU countries which are new members of the EU and as such receive huge cash and privileges from the EU in order to help them to develop a modern and competitive economy. The corporations from these countries also receive a lot of help from the EU (taxes, founds to make new facilities, etc), many of them are in the stock and try to compete with corporations from other EU members which don’t receive founds.
Using the same logic they apply to Opera’s issue, which is nothing but Laissez-faire capitalism, their own countries and corporations should not receive a single € from the EU and all privileges should be removed. It’s obvious that all that would lead to huge recessions and crisis in these countries which would have a deadly impact on their citizens.
It seems to me that they are either ignorant about what the EU, its Constitution and laws mean or just hypocrites. I tend to think the former is the case because all arguments are based on Laissez-faire capitalism, which the EU has never adopted nor will ever do.
using
Microsoft strikes back at Opera antitrust claims
news.com
using
W2 : ” and investor, you completly ignore the public relations factor of bussiness. ”
No I don’t. It’s important, but scary. As you say…no matter what they do, they are still cool and good
However, it’s not relevant to the issue at hand. In EU monopoly can’t block competition, to create a new monopoly.
Reading the MS arguments, they are not relevant either :
” Microsoft said it’ll co-operate with any Commission inquiry but, We believe the inclusion of the browser into the operating system benefits consumers, and that consumers and PC manufacturers already are free to choose to use any browsers they wish”
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/14345#comment-239776
1. It’s not up to MS to decide what’s best for consumers.
2. Free to choose browsers that are blocked by Windows, is not a free choice, de facto
3. MS doesn’t claim Opera is free to compete, for good reasons
using
ad1) it isnt up to EC either. i dont want to be forced to enjoy product A or B by court ruling.
ad2) if opera wanted and implemented activex, windows update would work in opera. somehow firefox with ie-tab managed to overcome ie-dependancy of win-update (dependancy that i can understand).
that opera refuses to work with 90% of world intranets is an opera problem (firefox works with sharepoint services OK) not MS one. MS decided to not support opera, it is their choice.
ad3) i dont understand this one
and yes, MS treated this claim as a buzzing fly, responding in a way that is simply insulting for opera. for the first time in history i agree with MS.
using
No one is forcing you, w2. IE is not going away. You can continue to use your favorite browser, IE, if that is your wish.
IE Tab is using the IE engine in Firefox, right? Then you are still dependent on IE.
MS knows that they are in trouble, so they came up with an answer that didn’t really answer the actual antitrust complaint. It was, simply put, a red herring.
using
i never said, that i use IE. your claims are as fun as me claiming that you like animals in a wrong way. so stop it.
IE-tab is an IE engine put into a tab. quite efficient stuff, when you think about IE as a OS tool to update itself. IE as an interface provider is nice, and having problems with winUpdate not working in opera/ff is rather stupid. winUpdate is a service for windows, conveniently shaped as a webpage, it needs tighter link with OS. and im q
other than that it isnt MS that is to blame for providing technology banks or online-shops use. MS provided technology, competitors could do the same (where is non-MS colaborative work environement like sharepoint?) but they didnt.
there arent as many pages REQUIRING you to use IE that you make it to be, most of them work very well in FF, so there is a choice.
it isnt MS that made web that way. that are webdesigners.
provide them with tools (like mozilla did right from the start, supported with community, that opera managed to piss of and segment), documentation (up to date one!) and with some common sense – why, oh why opera is affraid of going along the path other took, and always wants to be ‘the different, thus ignored, one’?
google, yahoo, ms/n, live, amazon, digg, deviantart, sharepoint portals.. etc. all this stuff works in ff. is it MS to blame, that it doesnt in Opera?
using
* Fact 1: IE is not standards-compliant. It provides technology that is not standards-compliant.
* Fact 2: IE has had more than 80-90% of the market for many years.
* Result: Sites are forced to use IE proprietary technologies, locking out other browsers.
If IE had been standards compliant, sites would be standards compliant. So yes, MS is to blame for giving only proprietary and non-standard technologies to web developers.
Most is not all.
The fact is that Firefox is lucky enough to be the offspring of Netscape, and known to most web developers. Even before Firefox, lots of sites automatically worked in “Netscape 6″ and thus the Mozilla suite because they were used to designing specifically for Netscape and IE.
“all this stuff works in ff. is it MS to blame, that it doesnt in Opera?”
Yes, because IE has kept an environment of browser specific code going, so rather than design according to standards, web developers code for specific browsers, and that means that they leave out anything that isn’t IE or Netscape. Historically. Firefox benefits from the Netscape connection because many sites were created to work specifically in Netscape 6, which uses Gecko, which is the same engine that Firefox uses a newer version of.
using
MS claims to have developed a lab version of IE8 that passes the Acid2 test.
So, they can follow standards if they want. But that would mean lost business, as sites developed for older IE versions would not work, so they won’t :
” Hachamovitch said Microsoft is taking a cue in lessons learned from making improvements to CSS in IE7 that made IE more compliant with some standards and less compatible with some sites on the Web as they were coded.” http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,140684-c,internetexplorer/article.html
MS is free to not follow standards, and free to not innovate. But MS is not free to prevent competition from doing so :
” The Court has confirmed that Microsoft cannot regulate the market by imposing its products and services on people. The Court has confirmed that Microsoft can no longer prevent the market from functioning properly and that computer users are therefore entitled to benefit from choice, more innovative products and more competitive prices. ” http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=6270
By bundling IE to Windows, MS imposes IE on its Windows users, forcing them to pay for and keep a software they don’t want. Users are charged via PC manufacturers who buy MS license, and IE cannot be uninstalled when installing browser of choice.
using
“IE is not standards-compliant. It provides technology that is not standards-compliant.”
what are the standards? w3c cant agree for years how to call css 2.1 and 3, they are still recommendations. what browser is standard compliant? (100% compliance, or you are not compliant)
“IE has had more than 80-90% of the market for many years.
* Result: Sites are forced to use IE proprietary technologies, locking out other browsers.”
one has nothing to do with another. digg.com is a quite neatly coded page, but it fails in opera. same goes with deviantart – none of these use MS propertiary technology, but both have issues with opera. somehow both sites were not forced to use IE technology. aside from lazy developers, IE-only tech is used on sites that REQUIRE tight OS integration of some sorts, somehow IE-competitors didnt provide their own solution to this problem. i repeat, where is the colaborative work environment, that is a competition to ms-sharepoint?
“The fact is that Firefox is lucky enough to be the offspring of Netscape, and known to most web developers. Even before Firefox, lots of sites automatically worked in “Netscape 6″ and thus the Mozilla suite because they were used to designing specifically for Netscape and IE.”
first, it is far fetched. second, this is opera problem, not ms-related. you obviously didnt do any web-dev lately, because what is common in ff/ie/safari is missing in opera – dev tools, serious dev tools. mozilla provided them from day one. they werent good, but they were steadily improving, then they’ve created a browser you can easily enchance, and thus allowed creation of FireBug. Firebug sealed vicotry for firefox, after FB even kids could write working sites (working in FF and in IE obviously, opera still provides sub-par bookmarklet js-dev-tools). reason pages work in firefox are: there are tools, ff is cool, ff is used by developers themselves so they have provate incentive. thinking that it dates to times most current web-devs were too young to remember is stupid.
using
“what are the standards?”
The ones even Microsoft has agreed with (without implementing them correctly).
“w3c cant agree for years how to call css 2.1 and 3, they are still recommendations.”
CSS 2.1 is called CSS 2.1, and CSS 3 is called CSS 3. Where is the disagreement?
FYI: “Recommendations” is what the W3C calls them. See? You CAN learn from debates online after all!
“one has nothing to do with another. digg.com is a quite neatly coded page, but it fails in opera. same goes with deviantart – none of these use MS propertiary technology, but both have issues with opera.”
Neither of these are standards compliant. Digg works fine in Opera, though. I don’t use DA. What kind of problems are you seeing on Digg and DA?
“somehow both sites were not forced to use IE technology.”
And yet they chose to not be standards compliant.
“IE-only tech is used on sites that REQUIRE tight OS integration of some sorts”
This is clearly a false claim. Do all Ajax sites require tight OS integration?
“first, it is far fetched.”
It looks accurate to me.
“second, this is opera problem, not ms-related.”
That comment was about Firefox, yes?
“reason pages work in firefox are:”
Market share and the Netscape legacy. Simple as that.
“thinking that it dates to times most current web-devs were too young to remember is stupid.”
You are obviously completely oblivious to what’s going on in the web dev industry.
using
“Do all Ajax sites require tight OS integration?”
ajax sites require tools to code them good withour unnecesssary effort. opera is around 1% share, and still requires webdevs to work in XXth century way, ‘alert-driven development’.
thing you cant understand, and never will, showing countless time brick-like mentality.
’standards’ are not well-written. there are lots of gray areas, uncertainities and blatant errors in specs. most browsers try to follow the common path, yet opera always seems to know better. that is ok with the standards (opera doesnt break them), but is completly stupid – going against the market, just to fullfill one’ pride. JS date format is one prime example. such a small thing, such a big mess. but you also cant understand it, i presume you’ve never ever written a single webapp.
provide tools, ajax sites will work (as long as anybody cares about opera in 2020, when finally opera co. will relase alpha of their tools). until then, sorry. limited functionality world for opera users. try ff3, they’ve copied full page zoom (without performance penalty that is in opera), got their address bar working lightning fast, and i can control how my tabs behave after i close them! and what opera copied from firefox? lately? nothing.
using
Your claim:
“IE-only tech is used on sites that REQUIRE tight OS integration of some sorts”
This claim was refuted, like all other claims from you. You are constantly caught lying and making factually incorrect claims. And when you are busted, you change the subject.
using
nelson, you saying something doesnt make my claim ‘refuted’ or ‘busted’ or anything. your posts are ALWAYS void of any substance or facts.
also you seem t ignore the more sensitive aspects of people’ arguments, always ommiting the most important ones, like tools (yea, opera is working on it – this means nothing), and finnaly, stop talking with yourself.
free advice – when you are in an constant urge to talk with yourself, consider seeing your doctor, it might be more serious than it sounds.
using
and btw, when you quote, please quote FULL sentence, you know, just to avoid acusations, of manipulation. because if you quote FULL sentence, youll see, that it means something else, than what you imply it to mean. try better next time.
using
That’s the reaction of someone who knows that he has been so thoroughly exposed and refuted that he has nothing else to say than “you cheater!”
using
Like I told you in the other discussion:
“The difference is that you keep changing the subject after your claims have been refuted.”
using
Stupid, only slightly related question: Has anyone noticed a problem using Opera to access Hotmail?
I keep getting “The message you selected could not be found. It may have been moved or deleted. Please click the folder again to refresh the view.” at a rate of about 50% anytime I try to access, read, or delete a message.