Interview with lead developer of the Opera Mail Client (M2)
Published July 11th, 2007 11:08 AM EDT By Daniel Goldman
Back in May I solicited questions for an interview with Arjan van Leeuwen, the lead developer of the Opera Mail client (also known as M2). Arjan is currently working on a major upgrade of the Opera mail client that will include a significant speed performance boost.
Note, ‘Kestrel’ is the codename for the next major upgrade to Opera, likely Opera 9.5. And ‘Peregrine’ is the codename for the major upgrade after Kestrel.
Bill: Why has M2 been allowed to languish so long? What assurances do we have as users have that after this upcoming upgrade it will be given ongoing resources and continued to be actively developed?
A: We think that mail is an important part of the Internet, and therefore an important part of an internet suite like Opera. We are committed to keep making the best internet suite in the world, and that includes the mail client.
Heathen Dan: Will M2 ever be released as a standalone client?
A: I don’t think that will happen anytime soon. M2 benefits a lot from being an integrated part of Opera. Don’t forget that almost every mail client has to include a complete rendering engine just to show HTML mails, where we can just use the facilities that are already there.
The use of M2 from within the browser should be as seamless as possible, and there are some possibilities for improvement there still. We will work on making M2 even more a part of the system.
That said, we are looking into the option of having a separate ‘mail view’ (a window specifically tailored for mail usage) in the future, for users that prefer keeping their mail separate from their browsing. In that way, we can still have all the benefits of being integrated with Opera, you’d be able to run it as if it was a separate mail client.
IceArdor: Will we see a new M2 GUI in Kestrel or Peregrine? Will it be called M3?
A: There will be a radically changed UI for the mail client in Peregrine. We haven’t really thought about the name yet, all suggestions are welcome :).
Gail: Will the delays and freezes with mail be dealt with?
A: Yes. One of the biggest changes in M2 for Kestrel is a complete rewrite of the backend used for the storage of mail. The main goal of the new backend was to increase the speed, since the old backend sometimes froze Opera while it was doing its thing. You will see a vast speed increase when using Kestrel.
GT500: Will there be any improvements to handling of blocked images? I would love to be able to tell Opera to block all images (maybe just all images in certain views, such as ’spam’), and then have a nifty button that I can click to show images in a specific e-mail.
A: We’re looking into the possibilities for improvement there.
Rachid Finge: How would you rate Opera’s current IMAP implementation in comparison to those of your main competitors? I especially mean Thunderbird, which seems industry leader when it comes to IMAP protocol support. What kind of rework are you planning when it comes to IMAP?
and
Graste: What improvements will the new IMAP backend bring in Kestrel and Peregrine? Will the IMAP standards support be similar complete as in clients like Mulberry?
A: As Graste mentioned, Kestrel contains a rewritten IMAP backend, based strictly on the IMAP standard, with (improved) support for features such as nested folders, keywording and working offline.
I wouldn’t exactly call Thunderbird the industry leader when it comes to IMAP support - Mulberry takes that one hands down. However, I don’t think we’ll easily be able to support the amount of IMAP extensions that Mulberry supports: Mulberry is a client that’s specifically designed around the IMAP protocol, while M2 is a client with its own design that supports IMAP as one of the possible protocols for the messages it stores. In other words, our goal is not to support as many features and extensions of IMAP as possible, but to make M2’s way of handling messages work seamlessly with as many IMAP servers as possible. We take a similar approach to Thunderbird in that respect.
Operafan2006: Will M2 support html formatting?
A: We have been experimenting a lot with HTML formatting in our mail composer, but we’ve not yet been able to get satisfactory results from it. This is a feature you will see appearing in the future though.
Dan DeVaney: Will Digital Signatures or Email Encryption be available in the next generation of Opera’s mail client?
and
Andrewdied: Opera and M2 are normally touted as secure, but M2 doesn’t have support for S/MIME or PGP/GPG. Is M2 going to get any of these per-message security features?
A: We are looking into integrating encryption and signing features into M2, but don’t expect this for Kestrel.
Frank Bacher: What does Opera want M2 to be? A full email client (within the browser) that can compete with solutions intended for business use or a client for the casual user?
Currently I don’t see the direction M2’s development is headed. For a business solution its contact management is sub par and a calendar is non existent. A solution for the casual user wouldn’t IMHO need to be as sophisticated.
A: We want M2 to be a productive and easy to use email client for people who have to use their email at a daily basis, even if they have to handle a lot of mails. We want to make organizing your email as easy as possible, whether you are using it for business or just for your personal mail.
We don’t have the ambition to be a personal information manager like Microsoft Outlook is - we want to be a mail client, and we want to be good at it.
Graste: Will there be any mind-blowing new and advanced features we small Opera enthusiasts or your competitors can’t even think of?
A: Yes, but I can’t tell you about them of course :).
FataL: What are main goals (not features) for upcoming new version of the mail client?
A: For Kestrel, our main goal is to improve the user experience by providing more efficient and feature-rich backends in M2. For Peregrine, we want to make M2 easier and more fun to use by improving our user interface design.
FataL: Will news feeds client still stay as part of mail client? (Personally, I like this approach)
A: Yes.
Mark: Will the age old problem of restricting how many newsgroup messages get downloaded be fixed?
A: Yes.
Gail: Any way to archive/store old mail?
A: We are working on easier archival solutions for M2 that will appear in either Kestrel or Peregrine. It’s currently possible to manually export and import mail, but I’d certainly agree with you that that is not a perfect solution.
Rachid Finge: M2 has pioneered the approach of a database like mail client, e.g. using filters instead of folders. While this might appeal to advanced users, it seems often confusing to less demanding users, which probably are in the majority. Do you think, in hindsight, the approach of M2 was the right one? And will it remain the same for its successor?
A: Yes, I think that was the right approach, and I think that approach still has a lot of potential. Much of the redesign of the user interface in Peregrine is aimed at making very useful features of M2 that might be difficult to discover at the moment a lot easier to use.
Chesss: Will M2 become more resource hungry with the upgrade?
A: No, M2 will use less system memory and less CPU with the upgrade, and we will continue to try and find ways to improve that.
DynaBMan: Are there any plans to implement a more functional interaction between M2 and the mail server. Thunderbird has a feature that allows the user to leave the messages on the server until they are deleted from the mail client. This would be very handy to have in M2.
A: I’m assuming that you are talking about communication with a POP3 server here. That is indeed one of the features that Kestrel will have.
Suribe: I like the M2, use everyday with 3 accounts and love it! Thanks for such wonderful application. My only wish is to apply tags to messages, as the labels, but more than one. Thanks again for this excellent application!
A: You can already do that, although the feature is confusingly called ‘Filters’ in M2. Filters work like tags, in the sense that more than one of them can be applied to one message (by dragging the message to different filters), and you can easily view all the messages that have a specific filter. Expect improvements in this area with the Peregrine release.
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using
is there a way to find out if the new rewritten m2 will include support for ujs, ucss and that-google-reader-like-layout-where-feed-items-are-displayed-below-each-other-that’s-name-doesn’t-come-to-mind?
using
This is the answer I can’t agree with:
“We want M2 to be a productive and easy to use email client for people who have to use their email at a daily basis, even if they have to handle a lot of mails. We want to make organizing your email as easy as possible, whether you are using it for business or just for your personal mail.
We don’t have the ambition to be a personal information manager like Microsoft Outlook is - we want to be a mail client, and we want to be good at it.”
In order to compete, you have to be powerful and complete like outlook. Its contradictory to the concept of opera internet suite. people want things all together. To increase popularity of opera, M2 has to be real alternative to standalone clients like outlook,eudora and thunderbird.
using
Ahhh, interesting interview. Thanks!
Can’t wait to test new Kestrel builds.
using
Great Q&A session, even if he didn’t say why M2 has been allowed to “languish so long.” (I wouldn’t have expected a real answer there anyway.
)
I wish there were more said about the RSS reader, specifically about whether the “freeze” issue will be addressed in the coming releases. (If you have more than a few feeds, when Opera is started it checks and downloads the newest articles, freezing the client for a while.)
Thanks for posting this!
using
In order to compete with what? What makes you think that Opera’s goals with M2 are what you think they should be?
Maybe because it’s been worked on for Kestrel?
Already answered:
“The main goal of the new backend was to increase the speed, since the old backend sometimes froze Opera while it was doing its thing.”
Mail and feeds use the same storage, right?
using
An interview, nice.
using
Too bad some of the most interesting questions were left out… :\
using
Of the examples you mention, only Outlook is a PIM with a built-in calendar. We compete with the likes of Eudora, Thunderbird and Outlook Express, not with PIMs like Microsoft Outlook or Lotus Notes.
using
Thanks for the Q&A’s. One of my favorite feature in M2 is the “open” searches in the hotlist, please keep it
This way I can search for strings and see in real time if it hits on incomming news feeds or mails. What I miss is more sophisticated search logic.
using
using Opera 9.50
using
I loved this interview. No one would be more pleased than me, if M2 is updated in the new version. I have been using it on windows and Linux, with 5 email accounts.
I always wondered about the possible improvements in the IMAP feature. The client freezes on some occasions, especially while downloading lots of messeges. Sometimes, even if I click manually on ‘Check/Send’, M2 wouldnt check the server! (and the remedy is to restart the browser) More so, there are issues with IMAP sent folder. Even if I choose my sent folder in the IMAP settings, some of the mails don’t show up in the general ‘SENT’ folder.
I am eagerly waiting to try my hands on Kestrel. I hope it would address the above issues…
using
Oh no, not yet another backend for the mail storage? I’ve lost count how many time they’ve changed that!
Personally, I think this is totally the wrong thing to do: I work with Opera M2 for a couple of years now, and I had very little issues with the storage system. (I’ve heard more complaints about Outlook’s or Thunderbird’s way of doing things!)
But feature-wise, I think, M2 totally lost ground to its competitors. M2 is the only reason for me to still use Opera on the desktop, in fact.
I’ve hold back converting to Thunderbird for quite some time now: first I wanted to wait for TB2, then I couldn’t export all mails from Opera reliably, then I thought I should wait for 9.50 — but I don’t think I’ll hold my breath until Peregrine has landed.
What a pity…
using
Brief summary:
Kestrel: (Opera 9.5)
- complete rewrite of the backend used for the storage of mail (vast speed increase, the old backend sometimes froze Opera)
- a rewritten IMAP backend, based strictly on the IMAP standard
- improve the user experience by providing more efficient and feature-rich backends in M2
- M2 will use less system memory and less CPU with the upgrade
- more functional interaction between M2 and the mail server (leave the messages on the server until they are deleted from the mail client)
Kestrel or Peregrine:
- easier archival solutions for M2
Peregrine: (likely Opera 10)
- radically changed UI for the mail client
- make M2 easier and more fun to use by improving user interface design
- making very useful features of M2 that might be difficult to discover at the moment a lot easier to use (filters, etc.)
Future:
- HTML formatting
“Looking into”:
- a separate ‘mail view’ (a window specifically tailored for mail usage)
- integrating encryption and signing features into M2
Other:
- restricting how many newsgroup messages get downloaded will be fixed
- no ambition to be a personal information manager like Microsoft Outlook is
using
Personally, i would really like to see a calendar in M2 (even a simple one). I kinda got my hopes up as the job position for “Mail/Desktop developers” on opera jobs page called for “experience in calendar protocols”…
But does the “no ambition to be a PIM” bit mean that there is absolutely no plan to include a calendar feature?
using
That’s true, but Thunderbird has Lightning, and while it certainly still needs some time, at least I know there’s something coming! It’ll be interesting to see how much Lightning has developed by the time Peregrine is released.
using
Well yesterday, I REALLY wanted Kestrel, today, I am planning on breaking into Opera offices and stealing binaries of Kerstel
Any chances of a larger (but not as big as weeklies) beta team? Sign NDA’s and such.. Count me in…
using
Daniel, thanks a lot for collecting the questions, organizing this interview and posting the results.
Arjan, thank you very much for the clearing answers to the questions and especially to give some hints towards the timeline. I’m looking forward to both, the Kestrel backend improvements and the new Peregrine frontend.
Dane, special thanks for the summary.
using
Dane, nice summary.
Btw, here’s the Digg link:
http://digg.com/software/Interview_with_lead_developer_of_the_Opera_Mail_Client_M2
using
Now that was a good interview. Many thanks to Arjan for answering all of those questions, and for all of the info on what to expect from Opera’s mail client.
using
I think basic PIM can be pretty easy created and integrated with Opera… and we already have Notes panel as part of it.
We need just another panel similar to Notes, but structured like History in “by time and date” mode. Here we can add notes with time stamp or time frame. That’s it. Just one more thing — there should be some informer, like M2 has right now about recieved mail.
That’s my vision…
using
Dane, in your summary I would move HTML formatting from “Future” to “Peregrine”
using
FataL: Sure, I could move it, but will the developers?
My summary was only for this interview so I didn’t want to base it on speculations from other sources…
I wouldn’t complain if it was it in Peregrine though
I probably wouldn’t use it much myself but it is often useful if other people send you HTML emails as replying to or forwarding that mail totally breaks it… This is often the case in mailing list emails like Yahoo groups etc.
using
IMAP support is crucial for modern email client. i don’t care what are the ‘goals’ of opera team, but email client with IMAP implementation that fails more often than not, isn’t a mail client.
I’m very very happy to hear, that AT LEAST opera decided to spend some time on M2, as i was simply embarrassed when new users asked me about this component of opera. list of what doesn’t work is too long for todays standards
using
We been requesting GNUPG for the longest time for M2. I would say that is the single, longest request on the forum (about 4 years ago).
Yet most of the time, developers turn the other way. It seems this version will also disregard what the users want.
using
Good interview, Dan!
One thing, though - I remember one question that I hoped would have been answered: will the revamped mail client enable you to delete attachments?
using
@Dane: FataL only says that since he’s seen a semi-working implementation.
@Jezetha: No decision has been made whether that will be possible. There are various problems with doing so.
using
Great interview! Excellent summary!
I sorely miss PIM functionality in Opera. If I could sync with my mobile phone I’d be sorted and would definately ditch Outlook?!
I can’t wait for 9.50!
using
Anyone notice the Opera guys here, already run 9.50
Talk about rubbing it in!!!
using
I love M2. I’ve used nothing else for nearly 2 years. But…
M2’s contact management is awful. This is really something to work on.
using
Mark, Tim wasn’t using 9.5, but you’re right that many of them do. I think I even recall seeing a couple of comment left with Opera 10 (although at the time that could have been an internal version number for Kestrel).
using
Great interview, Daniel. Thanks. We all look forward to Kestrel. Good luck.
using
Well, I would say that you are wrong. There are lots of requested mail features that are FAR more popular.
You can’t add everything the users want at once. And especially something like encryption, which only a few people have really requested, should hardly be high on the list.
using
Earth to Arjan van Leeuwen!
This is just a list of what an e-mail client should have, if it doesn’t it can hardly be used as one.
Outlook is the preferred app out there, and overlooking it only hurts you, M2, and anyone responsible for the resources.
Where is the innovation, where is the connection to mobile devices with Opera/Opera Mini, etc. ?
For years now Opera has had the chance to be the leader of the interconnected devices. And now somebody else is entering that space….
That’s right: Mac OS X, .Mac, and iPhone!
using
Enable adding of attributes, so users can define search criteria based on personal meanings of a particular e-mail.
Personal TAGing. It was done back in the 90’s by BeOS, although it didn’t help them much it sure helped those using the mail system, which in fact was just an interface to the BeOS Filesystem.
using
Jake: you can already create folders and put a single email in multiple folders (gmail calls its similar idea “labels”), that was one of the main features of M2…
But as Arjan sais, this can be a little confusing for regular uses and changes to the UI in Peregrine seem to revolve around making this easier.
using
Earth to Jake!
Opera is not trying to compete with Outlook! Get a grip, and stop being a pompous knowitall. Arjan knows what he’s doing, you don’t.
using
“For years now Opera has had the chance to be the leader of the interconnected devices. And now somebody else is entering that space….
That’s right: Mac OS X, .Mac, and iPhone!”
dont worry, opera fanboys [and deveoplers
] are not going to understand this, even if somebody had written it on the sky.
dont worry, instead of web sync we are going to get something.. innovatively stupid and with marginal usefulnes - like widgets 2.0
“Opera is not trying to compete with Outlook! Get a grip, and stop being a pompous knowitall.”
so opera is doing wrong. not because opera should aim at being industry standard. no. it is because opera should aim at what outlook does - it works! IMAP support in M2 SUCKS! it is the best word to describe it - it SUCKS. i wasnt able to get it to work with any mail interface present in our company [thunderbird, eudora, outlook/express all worked fine]. pop3 isnt the preffered solution in corpo environment.
and besides, outlook beats opera not only in its PIM compnent [that we ignore in this disscussion, it should be there, but it isnt, matter closed], but in simple usefulnes. backups? exports? html composition? attatchment management? no matter how much MS is in outlook, it simply does the job better. filters being the only thing opera does better, and that is only up to when somebody out of pure boredom writes a plugin to extend outlook. you cant do that with opera. it is so 1990ish
using
Oh dear, “rather confused” is back after getting his a** handed to him in other discussions here
Seeing as he completely ignored the information about the new IMAP stuff I don’t see the point in arguing with him anymore. He clearly lives in his own little world.
using
ive read stuff about IMAP, and entire interview btw. it isnt anything more than press info until i see it works. and it is going to take time i think. ive read opera claims before - i remember esp well the part about groundbreaking feature (speed dial), so forgive me, but ill wait before belieing anything i hear from opera. not because they lie on purpose, but i think that they live in paralel universe.
and worry about your own a** mr nelson, discussing with someone who uses arguments ‘you know nothing’ is a waste of time, that i prefer wasting looking as the paint dries.
much more tempting than reading what you have to say (nothing in fact, you only contest, never say anything on your own).
using
Very good interview Daniel. It’s good to know that the development of M2 is still in progress.
I guess that now you need to interview the IRC developers as well.
using
We all know who lives in the parallel universe, “rather confused”
You lost the other discussion about Speed Dial. Let’s not force me to give you an a** whooping here too
using
So Mozilla does not live in a parallel universe with their “groundbreaking” mobile browser with amazing “innovations” like SSR, spatial navigation and other things ripped straight from Opera’s mobile browser without giving credit?
It’s not about living in parallel universes, “rather underwhelmed”. It’s about hyping one’s own product. Clearly you are clueless about product development and marketing.
using
NutCase and ‘rather underwhelmed’, please let’s keep personal attacks, etc. our of the conversation here.
using
first, i dont remember posting in speed dial art, second, dont expect me to react to you any more. i dont feel like wasting my time on you. it isnt your annoying PR manager personality that makes it, it is the knowledge and input into the discussions that you provide. both equal zero.
facts, that you cant argue with [and you dont even try, instead you discard all my points attacking single sentences took out of the context - it is called sophismate in latin, and you cant even do it properly] are that M2 isnt a fully functional email client that is in any way competetive to modern mail-apps like outlook, thunderbird or even eudora.
m2 is outdated. period. these changes mentioned in interview, even if implemented fully in kestrel are not going to change that. sadly, because 5 yrs ago m2 was VERY innovative, sadly its developments was virtualy stoped for years. world moved on, m2 did not.
“It’s not about living in parallel universes, “rather underwhelmed”. It’s about hyping one’s own product. Clearly you are clueless about product development and marketing.”
ive mentioned several times, that hype is something opera developers dont understand, and probably will never do. they think that having better product is going to suffice. problem with opera is that it isnt clearly better than firefox, but certainly firefox is better sold. not to mention safari that people would pay for using if apple wanted.
[and please dont bs about mozilla being funded externaly - money spent on 'opera days' that only opera-users-and-geeks-at-the-same-time knew about could be better spent on press ads in gaming magazines to gain NEW users! besides there are completly free ways of attracting new users, or spreading the world. how it came that uTorrent is known by 90% of torrent users? how many millions theyve spent on marketing BEFORE being aquired by some big company. re.: none]
same is going to happen, when apple manages to create working and easy to use [they always manage to do that part] multi-sync between mac, web and iphone. opera had it at hands reach years ago - same application on many platforms, but.. they didnt do that. how pitty that again somebody is going to take all the fame and money. opera’s invention, true, but somebody is going to do it better and TELL THE WORLD ABOUT IT. nobody is going to remember that it was opera’ idea - like with most features ’stolen’ from it, they are now all ‘firefox’ inventions. and nobody sane is going to blame ff for this. it works that way, you know, in real world.
ff gets the press - are you going to say that mozilla paid all the press of the world to spread the world about ff and forbid them to write about opera?
but, maybe it is opera fault again? i know companies in my country that sell gas pipes, that have better press coverage than opera.. c’mon!
btw. mozilla did what it should do - copied everything theyve found worthy of opera and implemented it. it is rather strange, that opera doesnt do itself. ff/tb both have features that sould be copied, because people USE THEM, and DEMAND them in the forums [spell-check, autofill - how old are these wish list entries? 4 or 5 years for autofill i think].
using
Please ignore the “underwhelmed” troll who keeps ruining this blog with his very presence. Responding to him will only lead to more clueless and misleading comments.
using
You know, I found the Speed Dial to be such a useful feature, that it changed the way I browse (I used to use the Personal Bar, now I don’t), so if you don’t mind, I think I’d rather be ‘overwhelmed’ at Arjan’s replies than ‘underwhelmed’.
Anyway, I think we’re losing sight of the fact that this is Daniel’s blog and not a debates and discussions forum. If you want to debate on this issue, then do it here.
using
Well, actually it seems that he is having a clue.
I still remember how fond we were of the innovative M2. Back then.
using
While it’s great that common components/libraries can be reused, it can and should be made available a seperate application. There are a lot of people that may be interested in M2 for its emailing capabilities, such as indexed search. But right now the fact that its integrated in some browser they don’t or won’t use, is holding them back. It doesn’t look like an email client, doesn’t feel like one, so outsiders may not be accept it as one.
using
Fine, very nice! Opera is perfect product! Users, using Opera